Quranic Divinity

Frankly, I believe learning is a two person process. How does anyone expect to learn from anything without a hand to either guide, debate, or support. I have learned a lot from this discussion so it makes all the difference in the world to me and my learning in regards to the Qur'an. I also step-up I believe in what mquran says.

Peace Enquirer, you still bring forth no example. Sorry. And I've invited you to kindly debate with me, about anything. And you still haven't responded in that thread. I wanted to know why "it's unethical to debate with a 14 year old." If you're not willing to discuss or bring evidence for claims (for example, Qur'an-alone people always ridicule others for their beliefs without showing one example), what are you here for? So I say again I'm willing to kindly discuss all your concerns on the Qur'an. Why not take the offer?

Peace Yet another example that shows you bring nothing to prove your claims. This is in another thread talking to mquran And really,i believe you have read your own version of 'reality' into the quran by the use of dictionaries,circular logic,random interpretations,apologetics and illusions... I have seen your techniques now,whereby you conceal/hide many of your more wacky/idiosnycratic interpretations,while publicising those that may be useful in a debate... He even asks you to show him how. Why do you just say things without pointing how? Even me, a naive and ignorant 14 year old, has the respect and decency to, at least do that. Oh well.

peace danish Nowadays, understanding islam is becoming more and more difficult, especially for those who studies it with prejudices and doubts. And because of false traditions, uncertain "ahadith", possible myths, u will find urself intrigued many times, especially that everytime u grasp some faith, one of the atheist jump over, and start shooting on islam, on coran especially. What's the solution? Simple, just start from the point that nobody can reject, the faith that is already in u, the fact that GOD created u, ur existance can't be just an accident. When u put that in ur mind, and decide to start a quest to find GOD, ask HIM for help and HE will guide u. 2186 And if My servants ask you about Me, I am near answering the calls of those who call to Me. So let them respond to Me and believe in Me that they may be guided. u have what u need, a mind, just use it, and the proofs about GOD r various. Nobody can tell it to u, u must find it by urself. salam

Peace all, This is my last post on this topic, so please read it carefully. I will recap what was mentioned by me including some unanswered questions. If people still refuse to understand and cannot capture the theme and drama displayed by these ?thugs?, then there is nothing further to discuss but to leave you alone with two words EXTREME DENIAL. THE HEIGHT OF BRIBERY IN THE NAME OF ALLAH All Mullahs are pointing their fingers to one person- Maurice Bucaille. We are sick and tired of hearing about Maurice Bucaille again and again. Who is this Maurice Bucaille? I will answer this question later in this essay????? Who was Maurice Bucaille? Was he a world famous scientist? Or, Was he a Nobel laureate? Or, was he an authority in theology, Embryology, or Astronomical science? ANSWER IS NONE OF THE ABOVE. Maurice Bucaillle was an ordinary French Physician and lived in Saudi Arabia as an expatriate doctor to Saudi King Family. He was not a better doctor than any of those hundreds of Bangladeshi or Indian expatriate Physicians working in Saudi Arabia. But because, he was the Physician for Saudi King Family he developed a special relation with Saudi King. To keep Dharma Bebosha' (religious trade) booming, Saudi king asked him to write a book highlighting Qur'anic science for which the King offered him $6 million dollars. Clever French Doctor wrote the book "The Bible, The Quran and Science", got $ 6 millions (from the Saudi King) and got another $ 2 millions by selling his book (according to Dr. Campbell). This book was sold in Islamic World like a hot cake. It was told that, this doctor distorted the actual translation of Holy Qur'an by intentional/selective choosing of various meanings of Arabic words in order to match his theory of scientific explanation http//www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/skm/Religion_Science_Bucaille.htm Was this French physician ever a Muslim? http//answering-islam.org.uk/Campbell/bucaille.html And you come out and conveniently compare a four year study course done by just one non-muslim French physician to countless years of studies done by highly intellectual biased and unscrupulous scholars? Have you forgotten the native Christian Arabs and thousands of other non-muslims who may have studied or speak Arabic and are simply born or reside in certain Muslim countries in which this language is spoken? I have known English all my life; must I study the entire Bible and proclaim it GOD's Words? Money WAS his aim to study the Quran in Arabic, being a close friend of the KING. Have you come across any of his writings or speeches in Arabic? Bribery, as huge as $6 million and more, can bring its true colors, to a non-muslim in the company of KINGS and specially when the same man who remains as a non-muslim. The entire "Muslim Thugs" claim that he embraced Islam and here you are denying it (underlined above). This itself speaks volumes. On top of that you smear an icing by saying, "only a few years before his death", only to be found in your dreams. What year before his death did Maurice embrace Islam and where is his proclamation, lets hear it from you? Firstly, I never said his "findings" were wrong. Secondly, several other scientists have undergone thorough research of all mummies found and none have yet precisely and accurately determined the REAL PHAROAH and studies are still ongoing. As for the money part, I gave the link where bribery was mentioned and there are other links that mention the same. Can you bring a link that shows he never took bribery? Last but not least, studies and research on mummifications were done in France long before he became a 'slave' to King Faisal. It all fits in perfectly without a grudge, yet the "thugs" will exaggerate and bent-over-backwards beyond recognition to prove their point across just to make the Quran to become automatically "Allah's Words", and here they are contradicting themselves all over the forum and in the entire world, taking Allah's name in vain. INCREDIBLE. LOL! The thug like Maurice takes bribery from another thug to examine certain verse (s) out the Quran for his scientific studies and you shout, ?SO WHAT?. And then you throw some verses on this screen to prove your point, worst off. The guy never became a muslim even after his gluttonous tactic offered to him by another thug, so much for both of them from ?hearing and obeying? to expose the Quran?s ?miraculous? state. Both of them are equally accountable for their insincerity. A choice to become a Muslim without the greed or to remain a non-muslim with greed. Only a thug will respect a thug, like in ?blind leading a blind?. The Quran is NOT GOD but a historical book written by MEN to be read, understood and reflected upon. FINAL POINTS Mummification of bodies was a common traditional trend in all parts of the world for spiritual and sacred reasons and not just during Moses? times. Mummies of humans and animals have been found long before Muhammad?s times as well as during his time and are still being found, the fact that ?Muhammad? and his people already knew and not by some mythical angel secretly revealing him this information. Study, research and analyze the earliest mummies found and their corresponding names and dates in encyclopedias and other historical/scientific links. Here?s a few links for starters http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummies http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaoh Now if Pharaohs and his people were drowned in the sea as understood by the Quran (splitting of sea with a stick by Moses o), how did they get mummified? ??? I?m sure some ?thugs? will pop out to dig their unfounded and unsupported claims on this one as well. rotfl The height of bribery alongside extreme denial is all what ?thugs? need to stretch it, in the name of Allah. I have nothing more to say.

Peace, Peace Danish, But can you see the image of the manuscript on my earlier post, whether signed in or not? Yes, I can see it. Also, when I click on it, I get a larger image. ) I know there's an 'attachment browser' in the Additional Options...button from where I uploaded a jpeg file in PDF format saved in my documents section and then hit "post". That's interesting, coz I've never used that option, I don't think we had that in the old board. Perhaps I am not correctly following the uploading procedure. Please advise. I think it's ok, since members can view it. However, another option is to 'Insert Image'. The only thing is, you'd have to get the image online first. Then right click, hit properties, copy properties, paste it here, highlight it, then click Insert Image from the icons above so it can be viewed in the original size, without clicking. But as I said, the option you used is just fine. Peace. I can see the image when only signed in. Perhaps I need to make adjustments to the IE browser on my computer. Thanks once again, Zein.

wow

Peace mquran. Thanks for clarifying. I would say those interpretations have to correspond to observable,objective and rational reality for me to agree with them...I appreciate that this can be somewhat subjective at times...If someone were to quote a verse/interpretation that was 'objectively' verifiable,then i would agree with that interpretation. (As i do with some on this forum when they do this.) I think many issues that people discuss are subjective,and personal context/circumstance dependant...Hope this answers your excellent question... It does answer my question, thank you. In the arena of al-quraan, how it works is, X will field his viewpoints with some verses and if Y disagrees, he will counter those viewpoints with other verses. I'll give you a demonstration X we need to obey sunna since al-quraan says 'athi'u ar-rasool' ! Y we need to rely on quran alone because al-quraan is fully-detailed. Upon verification, we can see that obey the rasool is explained by what the quran voices the rasool's sayings, not an external source. X is therefore wrong. In this way, if you find Layth to be wrong, you fielded 5/69 and 2/62. These two verses need to be analysed in order to see if your refutation was valid. I agree with you that agreement cannot be objectively seen, i.e. I cannot make you see, but al-quraan can be made to yield the objective facts.

Peace mquran and arnoldyasin... I respect the fact that you two dont mind going against the grain in your interpretations... I still fail to see the full significance of 'whipping' being an effective punishment/detterent against public indecency...Especially 100 times... Well, nothing more can be said except if and when it actually happens.

second u on this phoenix. May be you mean what i stated in another post about the different interpretations of law litteral (which could be what you call superficial) , historical, teleological(if that is what it is called in english), systemic... peace Elke, yes. It could be a literal understanding, but it's basically any interpretation that doesn't take with it the underlying message(s) of the quran. Those "hidden" messages are probably more important than the laws. Because if we understand the reason behind those laws, no matter what law we govern ourselves with, it will always agree with that reason, that message.

Peace danish...Thanks for your support...I look forward to your input by pm... bravo

peace Elke, you can thank me for that long post.

Peace to all, I'm locking this thread as it has (for a while now) degenerated to anything but the title. Peace brothers and sisters, peace.

Peace alpha97. Very good analysis and advice...we can also get a source of guidance from nature and our own life-experiences,as well as scriptures,science and wise mens/womens words...all this knowledge we can filter and verify through our own god-given intellect.

Peace alpha97. I accept some points of your post,but i believe you havent answered satisfactorily how an all-powerful god lets intense evil occur just for the benefit of learning and/or a test? If we stop wandering/enquiring then we may miss out on new knowledge and understandings. I believe we should know god by direct experience/questions and not by belief/witholding questioning. Peace all.

Peace Ahmed, Salam Danish Once again, thank you for your wonderful detailed explanation. no worries, i love the arabic grammar anyway and i used you to regain the knowledge Now, let me ask you this Were grammatical implications apparent at the time the "original" Quran was compiled or oral sayings of Muhammad? I'm not really sure about that, but I know that the Arabs at the time were superior in the language, i studied many of their poems and even was tested in it, and i tell you I hated the old Arabs way of talks, the Quran however is far superior to the old Arabs way of talk hence it took them by great surprise and could not challenge its style, many tried by failed, another difference is this, the Quran Arabic, can?t be hated rather loved and appreciated by all Arabs even the non Muslims, very strange indeed bro, and this is not a lie as I was accused by someone as such You have to also know that due to the surprise that took the very competent Arabic speakers, the Quran over the years was a ground for the language, grammar, and balagha, it is like we have been taught the right Arabic by the best teacher ?Allah? In other words, if Muhammad said "Abu" (as the name implies), then why did MEN change it to "Abee" to become grammatically correct over alleged "GOD'S Words" whether it fits the grammatical connotations or not? there is no proofs that it was changed to Abee, the ee don?t exist in the word Ab as I explained, they only required due to grammar and btw grammar?s only reason is to make the Arabic pronunciation easy, this is as far as I know, and believe me if you substitute the wrong letters in Abee, or Abu, or Abaa, you will see that the pronunciation will become harder within each specific sentence. Most Arabic speakers anyway talk without grammar and write without tashkil, and all the old poems are full of grammar errors, but these errors was accepted due to the balagha, Balagha means saying the max meaning with the least words, and that is what poems are mostly based on Who is superior, the man-made grammar that got invented hundreds of years AFTER Muhammad died and as recent as today OR the way the original names/sayings/messages were spelled out. well I take it as the grammar was invented 100s of years after revelation, that is why the Quran is a miracle, unless they based the grammar on the Quran, which can?t be proven really the bottom line for me is this Allah created all languages including the Arabic, therefore He will be the best teacher in any of these languages Allah knew for sure how the grammar that is created by men will be hundreds of years after revelation and He made His Quran without any grammatical error unless balagha takes over, and balagha was already in use during revelation through the poems. Very simple because Allah is the All Knowing, now there is no indication that this word has changed by humans as you are suggesting, can you provide any proof? Is grammar above "GOD'S Words" or was GOD not capable of saying Abu instead of Abee regardless of grammatical implications, if the real name was Abu or was it really Abee? Allah knew what is best for the ease of pronouciation The real name is Ab No ?u, or ee nor aa?, this is only for pronunciations aand are required by the grammar rules we have in place Who invented and provoked the rules of grammar on "GOD's Words" to bring about the Quran as we see it today and why? the changes in the Quran was min and was only due to difference in accents between the different arabs tribes, THE SAME CONETXT STAYS regarding the grammar and who invented it, not really sure, but I think more than one invented it, but as I said, the Quran may be the ground base for most of grammar rules after the surprise that chock them bad then submitting that it is the true words of Allah and He is the best teacher to teach us grammar. Lastly, have you seen and witnessed the "original" copies of Quran (biased) as written by scribes of their times displayed in the museums? no I haven?t but in my next trip to Egypt (this june coming), I will do that and try to take a few photos if I will be allowed If so, not so yet, what grammatical rules applied then, if any, makes you 100% sure of grammatical rules applied after (hundreds of years later) or today becomes 100% GOD's Words either way, yet we find the difference in Abu and Abee? not sure what your question is, as I believe I said my opinion regarding this point before, regarding the difference in Abu and Abee, there is no difference really, both means Father, the ease of pronunciation through grammar rules required them to be as such, but you can say it the way you want, it will still sound ok but you will just look like an ignorant as many Arabs do in their day to day talk of the language, So was it GOD who changed the name pronounced from Abu to Abee or was it the invention of man-made grammar? Again, who is superior and why? as far as I believe, the word in the Quran was Abee since revelation, and I showed other verses where it is also Abu and Aba, and in all location the grammar rules was perfect, now the onus on you to show us that these words was not like that when it was revealed The Al-Hussein Mosque Manuscript. (Egypt) Thanks and that is what I?m planning to have a look at in two months inshallah Salam

peace Ahmed, Thanks. lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol just kidding.

You're a good person of course. ) I second that lol

The answer to the 'topic title' can be found in the Quran itself.. 069.040-46 That this is verily the word of an honoured messenger; It is not the word of a poet little it is ye believe! Nor is it the word of a soothsayer little admonition it is ye receive. a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds. And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name, We should certainly seize him by his right hand, And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath). My understanding of the above passage is Quran = Word of an honoured messenger (The Revelation Bearer / Archangel Gabriel / Djibril) and a message / revelation from God)

peace brother Ahmed, thank you brother for your wonderful posts, i not only love reading them i have also saved them, there are however few questions which i will like you to explain, but not at the moment. ) i am a bit busy now a days so please excuse me for not replying in time. God bless you. Peace mate any time man, I'm sorry that I have not finished it yet but it will happen bro, I do many things at one time hence I don't get bored lol , but I have enough stamina in me because I enjoy helping other brothers and sisters to the best of my knowldge, it is an order in the Quran indeed Peace be with you bro