Taking off the Hijab
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Peace, David,
no offense, but this thread is about the particular experiences and feelings related to taking off the hijab, not about whether it's an obligation or not.
But, I think if a women were modest clothes, it may reduce the chance of being harassed in the streets.
I was talking about Egypt, and there it does NOT matter how you dress. You do get more harassment when you don't wear a headscarf, or when your ankles / forearms can be seen. But in general, all women get harassed, even those who wear niqab.
By the way, I recommend this article below. In the article, the author compares two extremes, women with bikini and women with burka. I do not agree with everything the author says, but i think it is an interesting comparison between some women in the west and some women in the east.
Funny that you posted that link because I just happened to read the article this morning. It's not the first of its kind that I have read, but it did piss me off. It's sad that there are still some men out there who have an issue with women wanting to lead a self-determined life.
I am soooo tired of women being stereotyped and categorized, and the comparison burka -- bikini is a really stupid one imho.
Plus, I find the article highly offensive. A woman in a bikini is "public property"? Oh, please! I am sure most here don't agree with the exploitation of female beauty and female bodies, but likening a woman who publicly appears in a bikini to a prostitute is simply stupid and insulting.
The author says a lot of other things that I find either very objectionable, scientifically wrong, or just plain stupid
For me, the burka represents a woman's consecration to her husband and family. Only they see her.
And why in the world should the husband and family be the only ones to see a woman?
The Muslim woman's focus is her home, the "nest" where her children are born and reared.
She is the "home" maker, the taproot that sustains the spiritual life of the family, nurturing and training her children, providing refuge and support to her husband.I so wish men would stop speaking up in the name of Muslim women and deciding what their focus in life should be!
A feminist, she belongs to herself.
The author seems to have no clue about feminism. Feminists do not strut around practically naked in front of millions of people; in fact they are usually highly opposed to that form of exploitation of female beauty.
She loses her innocence, which is a part of her charm. She becomes hardened and calculating. Unable to love, she is unfit to receive her husband's seed.
yeah
The feminine personality is founded on the emotional relationship between mother and baby. It is based on nurturing and self-sacrifice. Masculine nature is founded on the relationship between hunter and prey. It is based on aggression and reason.
And again we have a man describing how HE would like women to be, assuming the right to determine what being feminine and masculine means. I strongly resent this sort of silly stereotyping.
Feminism teaches woman that feminine nature has resulted in "oppression" and that she should convert to male behavior instead. The result a confused and aggressive woman with a large chip on her shoulder, unfit to become a wife or mother.
As I said above, the author obviously has a very distorted perception of what feminism is and how feminists think. The fact that he presents his personal preconceptions as facts does not bode very well for his integrity. Maybe he should have actually taken the time to speak to some feminists before writing his article.
This is especially destructive for woman. Her sexual attraction is a function of her fertility. As fertility declines, so does her sex appeal. If a woman devotes her prime years to becoming "independent," she is not likely to find a permanent mate.
So women should stop wanting to become independent because that will decrease their chances of finding a mate? Good Lord!
Her long-term personal fulfillment and happiness lies in making marriage and family her first priority.
I know I am repeating myself, but again -- I really wish some men would stop being so bloody patronizing and thinking they have the right to decide how women are supposed to find happiness and fulfillment! Please let us decide for ourselves what our priorities are and how we decide to find personal fulfillment.
Feminism is another cruel New World Order hoax that has debauched American women and despoiled Western civilization. It has ruined millions of lives and represents a lethal threat to Islam.
BS. Feminism and Islam are absolutely compatible. The Qur'an does not teach us that women are supposed to be submissive to their husbands, should not pursue a carreer and are only supposed to find fulfillment in being domestic animals.
Any religion / nation / society that sees women as second class citizens and denies them the right to live their lifes as they wish to, is doomed for failure.
This guy obviously has serious issues with independent women who don't regard becoming a housewife and mother as their primary goal in life. His nasty and patronizing comments are a testimony to his fear of such women. Well ... he and his likes won't be able to turn back the clock, and the particular model of femininity he is trying to propagate here is about to vanish sooner or later. Alhmadullilah!
I am not advocating the burka but rather some of the values that it represents, specifically a woman's consecration to her future husband and family, and the modesty and dignity this entails.
These are not "values" but the sick fantasies of a guy who is obviously suffers from jealousy issues and needs to feel he owns a woman in order to feel like a man. nope
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These are not "values" but the sick fantasies of a guy who is obviously suffers from jealousy issues and needs to feel he owns a woman in order to feel like a man.
you are living in a sick world, a world where men know only one thing about women that women have breasts! women are harassed all over the world, believe it or not men are not going to change!!
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women are harassed all over the world, believe it or not men are not going to change!!
Wrong.
Are you a woman? Are you a woman who has lived in different parts of the world, different countries and continents?
If no, I'd say you are not really authorized to claim experience and knowledge on this issue.As I said, I never get harassed in my homecountry, no matter how I dress; whereas in Egypt it is a daily occurence that has a very negative impact on my life -- and that of other women, for that matter.
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Wrong.
Are you a woman? Are you a woman who has lived in different parts of the world, different countries and continents?
If no, I'd say you are not really authorized to claim experience and knowledge on this issue.no Im not a woman. but due to my work Ive been in interaction with women all over the world for last 5 years now, and I do ask questions to everyone, moreover I read news, exceptions might be there but when we say all over the world we refer to majority and not each city and town.
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I read news, exceptions might be there but when we say all over the world we refer to majority and not each city and town.
I can only repeat myself -- there is a huge difference depending on which part of the world you are in. In my country, street harassment is basically non-existent. In Cairo, it is a very serious social problem that affects many women on a daily basis. So, no, men are not "the same allover the world". In some countries, they have learned that women have to be respected and that a man has no right to harass them -- regardless of what clothes they are wearing. In other countries men believe it is their right to leer at and harass women, they are being taught from early childhood on that men are "wolves" who can't control their instincts if they see a pretty woman, and that women are always at fault because of the way they dress, the way they walk, or simply because they don't stay at home.
You don't have to believe this if you don't want to; you can continue to accuse me of lying or exaggerating or mispresenting things, but that doesn't change the facts.
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You don't have to believe this if you don't want to; you can continue to accuse me of lying or exaggerating or mispresenting things, but that doesn't change the facts.
the great Maulana google is here just name your country please!
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Peace, David,
no offense, but this thread is about the particular experiences and feelings related to taking off the hijab, not about whether it's an obligation or not.
I was talking about Egypt, and there it does NOT matter how you dress. You do get more harassment when you don't wear a headscarf, or when your ankles / forearms can be seen. But in general, all women get harassed, even those who wear niqab.
Salam Leyna, as you know I have been harassed here a few times, mostly while I was wearing hijab. Since taking it off i still am harassed but I have 'the look' apparently that stops them in their tracks now, while wearing it I did not have 'the look' as it made me feel I should keep my head down and not cause a scene like a nice pious muslimah, bah!
I have said before somewhere that back in my own country I could go to Sainsbury's in shorts and strappy top and not get a second or even first glance, no problems at all, here in Egypt even though I still cover from the neck down I still get looks and unwanted comments, until I give 'the look' ;D I have stopped carrying the knife now but will again when ramadan comes.
All this I put down to living in a repressed society where it is more concerning what people say than what is right.
I get looks from girls here too now, the look up and down like im some piece of dirt and they have weighed me up and judged me from a glance. Girls that wear 2 or 3 scarves at a time with the tightest glittery tops and sprayed on jeans with 'the walk' that my arse just will not do!
the other night there were 4 of us girls went out to dinner. 2 Muslim, 2 non-muslim. the other muslim was fully covered in black abaya scarf socks etc, I was wearing a long dress to the floor that has a sewn in poncho-type top that comes down my arms, at points my forearms were showing from halfway down. The other 2 girls were also covered and appropriately dressed. We were walking behind two girls wearing the sprayed on jeans, glitter tops and hijabs and watching how they walk that is learnt to bring attention. We tried doing the same but ended up rolling about laughing at each others attempts rotfl When I got home I was telling hubby about it, he said the girls practice this in a mirror and with each other so they get 'the walk' just right to look good. I have never seen hypocrisy in the western world like I see here.
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the great Maulana google is here just name your country please!
anyone else who claims that "In my country, street harassment is basically non-existent." please come forward and tell us the name of country and get our appreciations! bravo
and Leyna how many cities are there in your country and in how many cities you have experience of living there?
And those on facebook would like to join http//www.stopstreetharassment.com/
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Peace, David,
no offense, but this thread is about the particular experiences and feelings related to taking off the hijab, not about whether it's an obligation or not.
Peace Leyna
Thank you for your reply.
I know that this thread is not about whether Hijab is an obligation or not, but i wrote it since i thought it was relevant to the rest of the things I wrote in my post. And when it comes to the article i posted, as I have already said i do not agree with everything the authour says. And if I am going to explain further I actually do not agree with most of what the author says. But the thing i thought was interesting was the comparison between two extremes (Bikini and Burka).
I was talking about Egypt, and there it does NOT matter how you dress. You do get more harassment when you don't wear a headscarf, or when your ankles / forearms can be seen. But in general, all women get harassed, even those who wear niqab.
First you say that it does not matter how you dress, then you say that you do get more harassment when you don't wear headscarf or when your ankles/forearms can be seen. What you are saying is a contradiction. Because you first say that it does not matter, then you say that it matters.
I believe it does matter how someone dress. And the Quran backs up my claim
Quran 3359
O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the women of the believers that they should lengthen upon themselves their outer garments. That is better so that they will not be recognized and harmed. God is Forgiver, Merciful.I got a some questions for you
What do you view as modest clothing? How do you think a woman should dress in the summer?
What is feminism? How is your view of feminism? And are you a feminist?
Have you read the history about feminism?
Do you believe that a person can support women rights without being a feminist?
Feminism has done much good for society. This is a fact. But did you know that feminism has been negative for the society as well?
Thanks.
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Since taking it off i still am harassed but I have 'the look' apparently that stops them in their tracks now, while wearing it I did not have 'the look' as it made me feel I should keep my head down and not cause a scene like a nice pious muslimah, bah!
LOL. I remember during my first and second year in Egypt, I was also very timid, but after that I developed a slightly different attitude. I don't feel apologetic for not being covered anymore, I don't feel apologetic for being Western. If people feel they have the right to look down on me without even knowing me, just based on their twisted preconceptions, believing that all uncovered women are sluts and all Western women are basically prostitutes, that just makes me feel sorry for them, and I also feel a lot of contempt for such an attitude.
I also noticed that the harassment has become slightly less since I changed my attitude and feel more self-confident. However, it is still too much and for me still constitutes one of the major downsides of living in Egypt.
I have said before somewhere that back in my own country I could go to Sainsbury's in shorts and strappy top and not get a second or even first glance, no problems at all, here in Egypt even though I still cover from the neck down I still get looks and unwanted comments, until I give 'the look' .
Same here. I am currently back home, and it is very hot at the moment. One of the things I tremendously enjoy is being able to just go out in a skirt and a tank top, being able to feel the air and the sun on your skin without ever having to worry about people looking at you or getting harassed. In Cairo, I am always covered from head to toe but can't even walk to the store around the corner without being leered at, commented upon, harassed etc.
I get looks from girls here too now, the look up and down like im some piece of dirt and they have weighed me up and judged me from a glance. Girls that wear 2 or 3 scarves at a time with the tightest glittery tops and sprayed on jeans with 'the walk' that my arse just will not do!
Yessss ... those looks used to intimidate me so much in the beginning. Now, as I said above, I just feel sorry for those girls. And if they stare at me for too long I just ask them in Arabic whether there is something wrong with me or whether they've never seen a woman. That usually shuts them up.
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LOL. I remember during my first and second year in Egypt, I was also very timid, but after that I developed a slightly different attitude. I don't feel apologetic for not being covered anymore, I don't feel apologetic for being Western. If people feel they have the right to look down on me without even knowing me, just based on their twisted preconceptions, believing that all uncovered women are sluts and all Western women are basically prostitutes, that just makes me feel sorry for them, and I also feel a lot of contempt for such an attitude.
I also noticed that the harassment has become slightly less since I changed my attitude and feel more self-confident. However, it is still too much and for me still constitutes one of the major downsides of living in Egypt.
i agree with you about the girls, it is sad and contemptableI think the attitude I have now which brings in 'the look' that stops them going further is an attitude you have to learn living here, everytime I have given 'the look' I have had 'ahh you living here' ;D
Same here. I am currently back home, and it is very hot at the moment. One of the things I tremendously enjoy is being able to just go out in a skirt and a tank top, being able to feel the air and the sun on your skin without ever having to worry about people looking at you or getting harassed. In Cairo, I am always covered from head to toe but can't even walk to the store around the corner without being leered at, commented upon, harassed etc.
Yessss ... those looks used to intimidate me so much in the beginning. Now, as I said above, I just feel sorry for those girls. And if they stare at me for too long I just ask them in Arabic whether there is something wrong with me or whether they've never seen a woman. That usually shuts them up.
I swear one day I will ask in Arabic if they want a picture! ;D I will ask hubby how to say 'have you never seen a white woman before?' though
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Peace, David.
And if I am going to explain further I actually do not agree with most of what the author says.
Alhamdullilah.
I believe it does matter how someone dress. And the Quran backs up my claim
David, I agree that it does matter how someone dresses. But I get a bit sensitive if people come up with the argument that "correct clothing" prevents harassment. That has to do with my personal experience of living in Egypt, because there is a heated debate about sexual harassment going on there. And part of the problem is that people don't acknowledge the need for education, manners etc. but claim that the problem would be solved if only women covered up more. A few examples of this attitude have been given earlier in this thread -- for example the advertisement that depicts women as lollipops and men as flies.
yuckWhat do you view as modest clothing? How do you think a woman should dress in the summer?
I believe it is not possible to make a general statement because it depends on the country, the circumstances and so on. As I said, I dress differently in Germany than I dress in Egypt. And how I dress also depends on whether I go to work, shopping, visiting friends, a beach and so on.
Actually, the verse you posted is very interesting in that regard. I always thought the fact that there is no specific length of clothes being defined in that verse is not a coincidence but a very meaningful fact. Because, as I said above, what is being considered modest or provocative depends on so many factors. Thus it is left to the individual to decide according to the circumstances / situation what they find appropriate.
What is feminism? How is your view of feminism? And are you a feminist?
Yes, I would most definitely consider myself a feminist. For me, that basically means that I believe men and women should have equal rights and that no person should be discriminated against, or have certain tasks / roles forced upon them based on their gender. I believe that gender discrimination and stereotyping harms both, men and women alike.
So it's very simple. A detailled discussion about feminism would definitely go to far in this thread, I believe.
Have you read the history about feminism?
Yes.
Do you believe that a person can support women rights without being a feminist?
Yes, of course. Also, I know many people who are definitely feminists as per my understanding of the word, but they would never describe themselves as such. There are a lot of misconceptions and negative connotations associated with the word, so some people do not want to be associated with this particular term.
Feminism has done much good for society. This is a fact. But did you know that feminism has been negative for the society as well?
No. And I don't believe that. But maybe we should leave the discussion about feminism for another thread since this is the "taking off hijab" discussion.
peace
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Dear Leyna,
It is nice discussing with you. You are a fair and reasonable woman, and I give you credit for that handshake
And I think it was unnecessary to point out something you said which was a contradiction. None of us are perfect, and we can all make mistakes. So forget what i wrote about your contradiction. It was unnecesary of me to write that. So I will take that back )
No. And I don't believe that. But maybe we should leave the discussion about feminism for another thread since this is the "taking off hijab" discussion.
I hope you are not in denial of reality, and that you just don't know about the negative things feminism has done to women and men in our society. And about the hidden history of feminism. If you are not in denial of reality (which you are probably not), then you may wish to do a research about the negative things feminism has done to society. This is just some advice from me. I tell you this with good intention. peace
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And I think it was unnecessary to point out something you said which was a contradiction. None of us are perfect, and we can all make mistakes. So forget what i wrote about your contradiction. It was unnecesary of me to write that. So I will take that back
)Nooo, you don't have to. You are right, what I wrote sounds like a clear contradiction, and I didn't express myself properly.
I am off to meet a friend at the park now though, so I will clarify later.
OK, speaking of going to the park ... I'm wearing a long skirt and a tank top. I will see people dressed in all sorts of styles there, some will wear Jeans and a T-Shirt, some will wear a bikini (a minority though), there will be short and long dresses and pants and pretty much everything in between.
The other week when hanging out there, I was sitting beside a group of Turkish people. One woman was wearing a headscarf, right beside her was a woman in a miniskirt and a tank top. That's the sort of thing I like ... diversity and no separation of people because of the way they dress.
Have a good evening everyone. peace
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As I said, I dress differently in Germany than I dress in Egypt. And how I dress also depends on whether I go to work, shopping, visiting friends, a beach and so on.
I got two more questions for you
- How do you think men and women should dress when they are in the beach?
- Is modesty important on the beach? Are the quranic limits/laws important on the beach also?
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OK, speaking of going to the park ... I'm wearing a long skirt and a tank top. I will see people dressed in all sorts of styles there, some will wear Jeans and a T-Shirt, some will wear a bikini (a minority though), there will be short and long dresses and pants and pretty much everything in between.
In my opinion, wearing a long skirt and a tank top can be a good choice of clothing in the summertime. And it is modest as well.
Have a good evening
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I got two more questions for you
- How do you think men and women should dress when they are in the beach?
- Is modesty important on the beach? Are the quranic limits/laws important on the beach also?
Modesty is important in the beach too. Dress code may be not as stricter as if you wear something at the beach it might not get any attention but it would get some attention if you wear it on the street.
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Peace nsws )
Thanks for your reply. I agree that dress code can be more relaxed on the beach. How do you think men and women should dress when they are in the beach?
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how about those tribal women who don't wear any tops at all? It is perfectly modest for them not to wear any top, isn't it?