Taking off the Hijab
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how about those tribal women who don't wear any tops at all? It is perfectly modest for them not to wear any top, isn't it?
Peace RasulHamsa )
Good question. Since they do not follow islam based on quran (they have another religion), they do not have to follow the same duties as muslims. But that does not mean that what they are doing is right or modest.
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I think modesty is relative, like the modesty of beach is different than the modesty of street or perhaps work place? and I think if in any culture where not wearing a top is perfectly modest is perfectly fine with God too?
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If something is wrong, is it not wrong everywhere? So if something is immodest, is it not immodest everywhere?
Then again we can say that if a man has a very relaxed dress code in front of his wife, then that would not be immodest.
But if he has a very relaxed dress code in front of other women than his wife, then that would be immodest.
So I agree that immodesty can be relative. But is immodesty always relative? For example the Quran tells women to
cover their breasts. Does it mean that this law should not be followed when a woman is on the beach?The reason I am asking these questions is to find the right answers. I think philosophy is very interesting.
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Peace all
I got some questions.
Is the clothing of the persons in the pictures below modest?
http//www.newsgroper.com/files/post_images/6_3_michael_phelps.bmp
http//static.thehollywoodgossip.com/images/gallery/denise-richards-bikini-photo_231x309.jpgKeep in mind that I am not saying their clothes are modest or immodest.
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If something is wrong, is it not wrong everywhere? So if something is immodest, is it not immodest everywhere?
Then again we can say that if a man has a very relaxed dress code in front of his wife, then that would not be immodest.
But if he has a very relaxed dress code in front of other women than his wife, then that would be immodest.
So I agree that immodesty can be relative. But is immodesty always relative? For example the Quran tells women to
cover their breasts. Does it mean that this law should not be followed when a woman is on the beach?The reason I am asking these questions is to find the right answers. I think philosophy is very interesting.
Imo, modesty should be defined by the dictates of the time/locale in discussion. So, while modesty is required "everywhere," the details of what modesty entails vary. It's a qualified relativism.
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Imo, modesty should be defined by the dictates of the time/locale in discussion. So, while modesty is required "everywhere," the details of what modesty entails vary. It's a qualified relativism.
exactly!
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Imo, modesty should be defined by the dictates of the time/locale in discussion. So, while modesty is required "everywhere," the details of what modesty entails vary. It's a qualified relativism.
Peace CavemanDoctor,
Thank you for your answer. But my first and second questions in the post, were rhetorical questions. Hence, i answered them myself. I tried to find the meaning of the concept "qualified relativism" on the internet but I could not find it. I think modesty should not only be defined by the dictates of time/locale in discussion, as this would go against these quranic verses 235-6 and 2431.
For example in the gym in the country I live in, it is very common that men shower naked in front of other men in the wardrobe of the gym, and that women shower naked in front of other women in the wardrobe of the gym. But if someone follows islam based on quran, he/she should not shower naked in front of other men or women in the gym wardrobe. Why? Because in verses 235-6 and verse 2431, we are told to guard our private parts, which means men should not show their private parts in a gym wardrobe to other men, and women should not show their private parts in a gym wardrobe to other women. Therefore, we can see from the above example that modesty is not defined by the dictates of locale in discussion.
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Relativism is the idea that some elements or aspects of experience or culture are relative to, i.e., dependent on, other elements or aspects.
limited or restricted; not absolute
'qualified relativism' means a relative/subjective/variable element within defined limits (i.e. qualified), in other words there is a minimum defined/specified/set criteria and the rest is relative, dependent on time/locale/wearer/situation/society/etc.
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I got two more questions for you
- How do you think men and women should dress when they are in the beach?
- Is modesty important on the beach? Are the quranic limits/laws important on the beach also?
salam,
look at this
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598402.0 -
below are a few different translations i got off the submitters website for 2431
"And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests" Khalifa translation
"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms" Pickthall translation
"And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms" Shakir Translation
"And say to the believing women that they restrain their looks and guard their private parts, and that they display not their beauty or their embellishment except that which is apparent thereof, and that they draw their head-coverings over their bosoms" Sher Alin translation
when i stop wearing hijab, i was wondering what my requirements are from the Quran when it comes to covering my chest, at the moment i just have my hijab go lower over my top to do the job. this is even when im not wearing low-cut tops which would reveal any skin.
my question is would you consider the veil asked for in the Quran as tops that cover your chest well or would you on top of your cloths need another layer like a shall or scarf to cover any shape?
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http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm
thanks for the link wakas,
i meant isamic dress in relation to chest area, i cant figure out if just covering with cloths is enough (eg shirt) or would you need a to draw an extra layer over?
i've had this debate and different translations make me unsure, does anyone know or have an opinion they can back using Quran?
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thanks for the link wakas,
i meant isamic dress in relation to chest area, i cant figure out if just covering with cloths is enough (eg shirt) or would you need a to draw an extra layer over?
i've had this debate and different translations make me unsure, does anyone know or have an opinion they can back using Quran?
I don't have an opinion that I can back up using the Qur'an directly, but only something that I believe is relevant. I'm going to cut-and-paste Muhammad Asad's footnote for that verse in mention.
Muhammad Asad - End Note 37 (2431)
My interpolation of the word "decently" reflects the interpretation of the phrase illa ma zahara minha by several of the earliest Islamic scholars, and particularly by Al-Qiffal (quoted by Razi) as "that which a human being may openly show in accordance with prevailing custom (al-adah al-jariyah)". Although the traditional exponents of Islamic Law have for centuries been inclined to restrict the definition of "what may be apparent" to a woman's face, hands and feet - and sometimes even less than that - we may safely assume that the meaning off illa ma zahara minha is much wider, and that the deliberate vagueness of this phrase is meant to allow for all the time-bound changes that are necessary for man's moral and social growth. The pivotal clause in the above injunction is the demand, addressed in identical terms to men as well as to women, to "lower their gaze and be mindful of their chastity" and this determines the extent of what, at any given time, may legitimately - i.e., in consonance with the Quranic principles of social morality - be considered "decent" or "indecent" in a person's outward appearance.
Muhammad Asad - End Note 38 (2431)
The noun khimar (of which khumur is the plural) denotes the head-covering customarily used by Arabian women before and after the advent of Islam. According to most of the classical commentators, it was worn in pre-Islamic times more or less as all ornament and was let down loosely over the wearer's back; and since, in accordance with the fashion prevalent at the time, the upper part of a woman's tunic had a wide opening in the front, her breasts cleavage were left bare. Hence, the injunction to cover the bosom by means of a khimar, (a term so familiar to the contemporaries of the Prophet) does not necessarily relate to the use of a khimar as such but is, rather, meant to make it clear that a woman's breasts are not included in the concept of "what may decently be apparent" of her body and should not, therefore, be displayed. -
An Apology to the Non-Hijabi
At a recent Egyptian dinner in honor of a visitor to our town, I encountered a situation that opened by eyes to an important issue that is rarely addressed.
I approached the honored guest to offer my obligatory salaams. She seemed nice, more quiet than others and the wrinkles on her face indicated that she must be a grandma. She asked me hesitantly which one of the women behind me was my mom so she can extend her good wishes to our family. I pointed in the direction of where my mother was assisting the ladies set the table for dinner, The old lady gasped for air and looked puzzled and said with disgust FOR EVERYONE TO HEAR
"Why doesn't your mom wear hijab? And how come you wear hijab and your mother doesn't?"
My initial reaction was to tell the woman off. But given the setting, the people she was related to I cared about and my good upbringing, I defied my instincts and calmly responded "Why don't you ask her yourself?"
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I realize now, years into my understanding of my own identity of a Muslim American woman, that most frequently women who don't wear hijab tend to be harassed, marginalized, patronized, lectured, judged, attacked, and insulted--get this--BY THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES, the Muslim community specifically.I've read countless articles, blogs, books, etc where Muslim women whine about their rights to cover, to not be judged for their choices, etc. But the opposite isn't always true. If a woman by choice doesn't wear the hijab, she is mistreated or pressured by the community to become a hijabi. I find it interesting that Muslims tend to preach and demand rights from others, yet they fail to fulfill them themselves. Where is the respect, freedom of choice and tolerant attitudes when it comes to Muslim women who don't wear hijab?
I would like to say it loud and clear for everyone to hear Muslim women who DON'T wear hijab are Muslim; they can be practicing; they can be God-fearing; they can love God more than a hijabi ever will; they can provide for the community. A piece of cloth doesn't determine who you are with relation to God.
Hijab doesn't mean piety. I've met the most despicable people who wear hijab, niqab, abaya, or whatever. And I've also met the nicest, most practicing, most inspiring women who don't wear hijab, but are modest in their heart, body and soul.
A recent Twitter buddy was upset when she took a short cab ride to her job in Cairo City, Egypt. The driver guilt her about her exposed hair. He told her she must cover because it's the duty of Muslim women to cover. She embarrassingly admitted that she wasn't Muslim and his lecture didn't apply to her. He then continued with his abuse and told her she was going to hell either way then!
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I think the 'holier-than-thou' attitudes in the Muslim community have no place in Islam. Prophet Muhammad didn't teach hate, but love. He taught us to be kind, to react calmly and to be gentle. I say we leave judging for God and embrace one another so we can fulfill the Godly command in the Quran to stand united by one another to battle evil and do good.On behalf of the abusive men and women who have made you feel 'less' of a Muslim or who have lectured you endlessly on the lack of your faith, I would like to apologize to you, the Muslim Non-Hijabi, for all the pain and disrespect we've intentionally and unintentionally caused in the name of God.
Forgive us.
http//organicmuslimah.blogspot.com/2010/06/apology-to-non-hijabi.html
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Just a little update on my situation. I did remove it completely for a while and was met with some expected and unexpected reactions. Most simply pretended not to notice and they were the same people who pretended not to notice when I put it on. Some however gave me the reaction I was hesitant to face. Nothing I couldn't deal with though and I think I did deal with most of what was said amicably.
As of now I'm wearing it but not wearing it. I wear it (extremely lax, mind) when I'm out and in a place where I'd rather just be left alone and I wear it when I know I'll be visiting the Mosque that day. The people I spend time with still don't really get it though. I made one acquaintance fully aware of my new approach to covering the hair although when I removed it yesterday to adjust something there was a bit of a kerfuffle about my hair being exposed. I guess it will take a bit of getting used to which is why I have tried to be patient with people, after all they strongly believe in the head-covering as a symbol of their faith and someone being so unconcerned about it (although it's really no ones business) is bound to get tongues wagging.
I'm generally just trying to get a bit more comfortable in my own skin and accustomed to being without it which isn't so easy after forming such a bond with it. Bit like Stockholm syndrome if you ask me.
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What do i men by modest clothes? In the pictures below are some examples of modest clothing that women who follow islam based on quran can get ideas/inspiration from
http//img.christa-taylor.com/t/category-product/img/graphics/00000001/p-canvasbib.jpg
http//www.tznius.com/images/products/cordtieredskirt1.JPG
http//www.catholichomeandgarden.com/Modest%20Clothing/Floral%20Essence%20Modest%20Clothing.jpg
http//mastina.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/wt6127b.jpg
http//www.silhouettes.com/HanoverAssets/silhouettes/large_images/7A256230_BO.jpg
http//www.denimology.com/2009/03/Z2H5QRKIZ4_JJennifer_Love_Hewitt_inGenetic_Denim_Boyfriend_jeans_JTn_Toluca_Lake_-March_7_36.jpg
http//www.modestclothingsite.com/images/modest-clothing.jpg
http//www.likeawarmcupofcoffee.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/sponsor-pics-0084.jpgSorry but those clothes look hideous! You can dress modestly and look good.
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There are right and wrong times for modesty. In day to day life when you don't need to attract attention, modesty is good, it stops one from been bothered by people. On the other hand, if you're trying to get a job or find a partner, modest is the opposite of the way you need to be. When you need attention from other people, you need to stand out, you need to attract, to be like a peacock, not a timid mouse.
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There are right and wrong times for modesty. In day to day life when you don't need to attract attention, modesty is good, it stops one from been bothered by people. On the other hand, if you're trying to get a job or find a partner, modest is the opposite of the way you need to be. When you need attention from other people, you need to stand out, you need to attract, to be like a peacock, not a timid mouse.
What nonsense. Modesty doesn't make one timid. People can stand out in numerous ways not just body image.
