Who Was the Pharoah of Moses
-
1/ Is Pharaoh/Fir3awn a name or a title? (If it is a title, fine only one dynastie was using these titles so we know it is in Egypt, if not then it could be anywhere else including Egypt)
2/ Is Misr a country/state in the Great Reading? (whether it is Egypt or not)Thanks
It may be neither, but a nickname having to do with the haughty nature of the person, a person who elevates himself even to the point of taking himself as a God. There is the perfectly Arabic root f-r-3 and the form of the word, as a colleague of mine, who studies very intently the Qur'an and is a cultivated Arabic speaker, thinks may be a diminutive-despective, a disdainful nickname for somebody who takes himself and more important than he is.
The usage in the Qur'an supports that, and there is only that occurrence with Musa and no other, when it speaks about Yusuf, and I do not care where Yusuf may have been, but the usage of Qur'an italks about Al maalik, malik is a title, not the same usage is followed with fir3aun.
Salaam
-
Yes, Samia, you answered it, I thank you.
The only thing that now springs to my mind in this question then is that the possibility of rain in that aya is not just the idea of somebody who would seemingly want to attract attention no matter how, or anything like that, but that it has been upheld by more people than would be warranted for my taste if the question had been completely straightforward and clearcut. Not that it is not possible, everything is possible, but I wonder what made them think of rain, because the subject and all is nto something very convoluted either that they owuld fail to see andI have not checked now but I have the impression that there are other words for help or relief in the Qur'an.
So it occurs to me that it might be a combination of both and therefore the choice of word, because, even if it is rare, neither it is impossible, if I haven't got you wrong. Like help in the form of rain, or rain that comes to help.
Salaam
-
Salaam huruf
I understand the problem.
As I say, the context rules. I do not have a problem with a rare usage of a word, especially a word used in the qur'aan, but only when cross reference and context allow it.
- Cross reference gives us one indisputable noun, ghayth, and all the other occurrences of either root are verbs of form X, which mean ask for relief, plus two verbs of form IV. One of the two definitely means relieved as it comes as a response to asking for relief (18 29). The other one in (1249) is the one in dispute.
The verb "yaghyth to rain" form I from gh-y-th, is not even used, but instead we have the phrase (brings ghayth down/ send rain).
- The context does not mention in any way that the famine would be caused by lack of rain. This would have immediately directed the verb "yughathu" towards the "rarer" meaning of r"would eceive rain". And maybe lexicons would not have considered it rare.
-
Salam NDP,
and why thank you, here we are, and Allah knew best, it was rain after all, even if the Copts did not know
The ancient Egyptians did not realize that the flood in fact appeared due to rains on the mountains to the south, and it was seen as the annual coming of the god Hapi. The rains would swell the different tributaries and other rivers that joined to become the Nile River.
Thank you for this documented evidence...
Now regarding what Bro pazuzu is writing, if it were so irrational and worthless (not to brag), but I would have royally ignored it as I do for so many theories that litter the Internet and this site... one of them is the proposal that the Jinns and Angels are not sentient beings, or the worship of the number 19, or the abuse of statements such as "stories in Quran have not really happened, but are there to teach a lesson, as if Allah was a lying fabricator... that Prophets did not really exist... etc." you get the drift...
incidentally pazuzu believes that Jinns are humans, and I forcefully say, he is misled, and uttering a blasphemy...
however his reporting on what wrote some scholars on alternative hypotheses that the Prophets cited in the Quran and Bible came from Arabia is worth consideration... as no progress without listening... and pondering... and analysing... and synthesising... and ultimately doing forensic thorough checking...
One shaky story does not make the truth, and neither do 2 or more... forensic findings will be essential... but in the mean time, this does not stop people from formulating and checking hypotheses, and others like me and you to give them a chance to expose their formulation, and not feel threatened by what they say...
-
Salam NDP,
The ancient Egyptians did not realize that the flood in fact appeared due to rains on the mountains to the south, and it was seen as the annual coming of the god Hapi. The rains would swell the different tributaries and other rivers that joined to become the Nile River.
Thank you for this documented evidence...
Salaam
This document also says The flood cycle was so predictable that the Egyptians even based their ancient calendar on it.
Whereas in the Quranic narrative of Yussuf, no harvests for 7 years were in the dream forecast. Had this scenario been about Egypt they would have abandond such a calender. This again rules Egypt out as a candidate for being the 'Misr' of the Quran.
peace -
It may be neither, but a nickname having to do with the haughty nature of the person, a person who elevates himself even to the point of taking himself as a God. There is the perfectly Arabic root f-r-3 and the form of the word, as a colleague of mine, who studies very intently the Qur'an and is a cultivated Arabic speaker, thinks may be a diminutive-despective, a disdainful nickname for somebody who takes himself and more important than he is.
The usage in the Qur'an supports that, and there is only that occurrence with Musa and no other, when it speaks about Yusuf, and I do not care where Yusuf may have been, but the usage of Qur'an italks about Al maalik, malik is a title, not the same usage is followed with fir3aun.
Salaam
God speaks with Moses
(7917) "Go unto Pharaoh, verily, he is outrageous"
Here, while mentioning of Frawn by God, it is obvious for Moses. Thus, this name and pointed person is unique for Moses. Commanding a person such as "Go to -the person who elevates him-" is absurd for anyone in many years of divergence. Do you think God has a problem with king's proper name?
(226) Allah is not shy to strike a parable whatsoever a gnat or larger. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for those who disbelieve they ask 'What could Allah mean by this parable? By it, Allah misleads many and guides many. ' But He misleads none except the evildoers,
-
Salaam
This document also says The flood cycle was so predictable that the Egyptians even based their ancient calendar on it.
Whereas in the Quranic narrative of Yussuf, no harvests for 7 years were in the dream forecast. Had this scenario been about Egypt they would have abandond such a calender. This again rules Egypt out as a candidate for being the 'Misr' of the Quran.
peaceWa alaikum asalam...
Thanks for this important point, IMHO... sometimes the so very obvious eludes me -[
-
God speaks with Moses
(7917) "Go unto Pharaoh, verily, he is outrageous"
Here, while mentioning of Frawn by God, it is obvious for Moses. Thus, this name and pointed person is unique for Moses. Commanding a person such as "Go to -the person who elevates him-" is absurd for anyone in many years of divergence. Do you think God has a problem with king's proper name?
(226) Allah is not shy to strike a parable whatsoever a gnat or larger. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for those who disbelieve they ask 'What could Allah mean by this parable? By it, Allah misleads many and guides many. ' But He misleads none except the evildoers,
I do not know what you got from what I wrote, but what I do not make head or tail of what you have wrriten nor what you want to arrive to.
Or where have I spoken of elevating Musa?
Salaam
-
I do not know what you got from what I wrote, but what I do not make head or tail of what you have wrriten nor what you want to arrive to.
Or where have I spoken of elevating Musa?
Salaam
Sorry but, I there is a misunderstood. I meant while God speaking with Moses, God tells "Go to Frawn"..Then, If Frawn was a title like "person who elevates himself", calling a person such kind of nickname is meaningless for Musa after 10 years of divergence. So, "Frawn" is known or unique person for Moses even 10 years after.
-
Sorry but, I there is a misunderstood. I meant while God speaking with Moses, God tells "Go to Frawn"..Then, If Frawn was a title like "person who elevates himself", calling a person such kind of nickname is meaningless for Musa after 10 years of divergence. So, "Frawn" is known or unique person for Moses even 10 years after.
I still do not know wht you are getting at. As I said, fir3awn, according to that understanding would be a despective knickname given to that tyran who is referred to as such in the Qur'an, it is not a title, it is not a proper name, but like calling somebody "the Clever one" or "the Dumb". It would be ironical of the penchant of that person to see himself as a big shot. It coudl be that in fact "big shot".
Salaam
-
Salaam
This document also says The flood cycle was so predictable that the Egyptians even based their ancient calendar on it.
Whereas in the Quranic narrative of Yussuf, no harvests for 7 years were in the dream forecast. Had this scenario been about Egypt they would have abandond such a calender. This again rules Egypt out as a candidate for being the 'Misr' of the Quran.
peaceGood observation indeed.
Salaam
-
I still do not know wht you are getting at. As I said, fir3awn, according to that understanding would be a despective knickname given to that tyran who is referred to as such in the Qur'an, it is not a title, it is not a proper name, but like calling somebody "the Clever one" or "the Dumb". It would be ironical of the penchant of that person to see himself as a big shot. It coudl be that in fact "big shot".
Salaam
Salam,
I do not agree with you Fir3awn cannot be a nick name because Moussa call him by this name for example in 17104, 17102
17104Moses said "O Pharaoh! I am a messenger from the Lord of the worlds
or in 2644 the magicians say
So they threw their ropes and their rods and said "By the might of Pharaoh it is we who will certainly win!"
So it cannot be a nick name.
At the contrary your msg in quote has a better reasonning
The usage in the Qur'an supports that, and there is only that occurrence with Musa and no other, when it speaks about Yusuf, and I do not care where Yusuf may have been, but the usage of Qur'an italks about Al maalik, malik is a title, not the same usage is followed with fir3aun.
my conclusion
It cannot be a nick name nor a title, so it has to be his nameRegards
-
I still do not know wht you are getting at. As I said, fir3awn, according to that understanding would be a despective knickname given to that tyran who is referred to as such in the Qur'an, it is not a title, it is not a proper name, but like calling somebody "the Clever one" or "the Dumb". It would be ironical of the penchant of that person to see himself as a big shot. It coudl be that in fact "big shot".
Salaam
It seems you are not going to understand me. Buy you may understand herbman who pointed out same thing as me.
Peace.
-
OK, now I get it. Yes, you are right. It is hardly imaginable that Musa would disregard even that civility.
Still, it might be his name, but I miss then there some form of hyerachical address, so it may be an individual from of address that encompasses his individuality and his hyerarchy.
Salaam
-
OK, now I get it. Yes, you are right. It is hardly imaginable that Musa would disregard even that civility.
Still, it might be his name, but I miss then there some form of hyerachical address, so it may be an individual from of address that encompasses his individuality and his hyerarchy.
Salaam
Salaam Huruf,
it's not only a civility, it's a command.
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
I believe that Firaun is not a title but his name, and this is the reason
there are many verses like
people of Nuh (qawmi Nuh)
people of Musa (qawmi Musa)
people of Hoed (qawmi Hoed)
etc...
but also
people of Firaun (qawmi Firaun)Thus if Nuh, Musa, Hoed are names then I believe that Firaun is also a name and not a nick (as per 4911) and also not a title, else Musa or Nuh must be aslo a title.
ps as far as I know you will never find "qawmi Aad" or "qawmi Thamuud"
-
Salaam
This document also says The flood cycle was so predictable that the Egyptians even based their ancient calendar on it.
Whereas in the Quranic narrative of Yussuf, no harvests for 7 years were in the dream forecast. Had this scenario been about Egypt they would have abandond such a calender. This again rules Egypt out as a candidate for being the 'Misr' of the Quran.
peaceWa alaikum asalam...
Thanks for this important point, IMHO... sometimes the so very obvious eludes me -[
Peace, illogical to abandon a working calendar based off a rarely occurring event that may never happen in the lifetimes of countless generations recorded perhaps once/twice in few thousand years.
That's like saying people would abandon farmers almanac due to non-predictable 7 year drought.
http//www.farmersalmanac.com/calendar/best-days/outdoor-chores/harvest/
-
Peace, illogical to abandon a working calendar based off a rarely occurring event that may never happen in the lifetimes of countless generations recorded perhaps once/twice in few thousand years.
That's like saying people would abandon farmers almanac due to non-predictable 7 year drought.
http//www.farmersalmanac.com/calendar/best-days/outdoor-chores/harvest/
Salaam NDP
In your desire to prove Pazzuzu wrong you call it a rare event, not worth altering the calender due to non-predictable 7 year drought, knowing well that the Qur'an has given importance to this event by giving details of the powers of Yossuf(AS) to interpret dreams. For that reason alone this should be of great prominence to those who claim to follow the Qur'an, and also to those who embraced faith after Yussuf.
peace -
In response to the dream of the Ruler, He is giving them not only interpretation of it but also an action plan for about 15 years. The first seven years they will keep continuously harvesting the crops . There is no mention of rain or no rain. The adverb shows continuity--all crops of all seasons. Thereafter he predicts arrival of seven years, and informs about their nature, adjectival description as hard, tough--. Here too, with reference to these seven years there is no mention or relevance of rain or no rain. He further tells them a new technique of storage of crops, to leave the grains in the shoots. That is the only way to sustain the grains for longer period spreading over 7-14 years.
How one will bring in "rain" in the 15th year?
-
In response to the dream of the Ruler, He is giving them not only interpretation of it but also an action plan for about 15 years. The first seven years they will keep continuously harvesting the crops . There is no mention of rain or no rain. The adverb shows continuity--all crops of all seasons. Thereafter he predicts arrival of seven years, and informs about their nature, adjectival description as hard, tough--. Here too, with reference to these seven years there is no mention or relevance of rain or no rain. He further tells them a new technique of storage of crops, to leave the grains in the shoots. That is the only way to sustain the grains for longer period spreading over 7-14 years.
How one will bring in "rain" in the 15th year?
The discussion is not about rain anymore, as Pazuzu has admitted that the ayat in question did not in fact mention rain. However he used it in its context, which he does in other places too, to apply normal usage to come to his conclusion, which is always open to debate.
As for Egypt records proved Nile also needed rain The ancient Egyptians did not realize that the flood in fact appeared due to rains on the mountains to the south, and it was seen as the annual coming of the god Hapi. The rains would swell the different tributaries and other rivers that joined to become the Nile River
The question now is, if it was fifteen years of action plan based on interpretation on the dream of the Ruler and it worked, which must surely have been a momentous event, how come it's not recorded in the history of Egypt, and why do some, who insist that Misr refers to Egypt, not consider such an omission worth investigation.
peace