In depth study on Salaat in Quran

6619

Salaam everyone,

As we all know, people who claim they follow the Quran exclusively are extremely divided on the issue of Salaat... To be honnest with you, such widespread division in the Quran alone movement has truly broken my heart for years. It is in my opinion the main reason why Islam based solely on the Quran has not thrived (so far) as it should have.
I've just published an article on Salaat which is the result of months of intense research. I believe there is new very important information that has the potential to truly make the difference, God willing.
For instance, the issue of the meaning of "Duluk al Shams" (Noon or sunset prayer ?) in 1778 is permanently solved thanks to a very simple observation; As well as the number of daily prayers prescribed in the Quran, thanks to a comparative analysis of some key expressions regarding Salaat times.
I am not naive, there will always be people who will deny, even before they actually read and study new information, whenever it happens to contradict their existing beliefs, simply because of ego; So this article is not directed to them, but to sincere people who love Islam from the bottom of their heart, and like me, are deeply affected by the divisions among people who aspire to follow the Quran alone.
Anyway I invite you to study attentively the new article
Summary http//www.islamrevolution.org/salaatsummary.htm (Please read first).
Detailed article http//www.islamrevolution.org/salaatinquran.htm

I pray it will help people, I am not here to start a new dispute, but simply to present a number of new observations derived from the Quran.

Peace and God bless you.

Pierre

Wakas

peace 6619, all,

I skimmed over your summary article and you seem to have repeated much of the arguments already discussed on this forum, with little reference to the problems raised in these discussions. See the very helpful compilation thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0

Did you read this prior to writing your article?

6619

peace 6619, all,

I skimmed over your summary article and you seem to have repeated much of the arguments already discussed on this forum, with little reference to the problems raised in these discussions. See the very helpful compilation thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0

Did you read this prior to writing your article?

Salaam,

That was an easy way to dismiss my article.
So basically without even reading attentively the article or letting other people do so, you decided to threw it away in the trash where no one will ever read it. Thanks, good job ! Your excuses do not mean anything and people want answers and solutions to the crucial issue of Salaat, and you are depriving them of this debate with this "trash" thread. Just for your knowledge, and I do not know your take on Salaat, Duluk al Shams cannot possibly mean sunset because it takes frequently over one minute for the sun to rub against the horizon. The complete disappearance of the sun (20130) is the time limit to observe Salaat, not one minute before. Therefore Duluk al Shams means the decline of the sun at noon. No other way around it. There are a number of critical pieces of information that prove there are five prayer times frames described in Quran, and you took it away from everyone on the forum. For instance did you know that 5039-40 refers to Salaat because we have to "Glorify at the ends of the prostrations" (regular plural = 3 or more prostrations). Do you the detail that links the verse to 20130, proving that 20130 refers indeed about Salaat time frames ? How can you decide on your own, even if it is a recurrent debate, to silence such a subject ! People suffer because of the mess created by divisions over Salaat and they want answers. At least give them a chance. Don't kill the debate.
... But you did. God is always the ultimate judge of what we do.

Pierre

6619

Salaam,

That was an easy way to dismiss my article.
So basically without even reading attentively the article or letting other people do so, you decided to threw it away in the trash where no one will ever read it. Thanks, good job ! Your excuses do not mean anything and people want answers and solutions to the crucial issue of Salaat, and you are depriving them of this debate with this "trash" thread. Just for your knowledge, and I do not know your take on Salaat, Duluk al Shams cannot possibly mean sunset because it takes frequently over one minute for the sun to rub against the horizon. The complete disappearance of the sun (20130) is the time limit to observe Salaat, not one minute before. Therefore Duluk al Shams means the decline of the sun at noon. No other way around it. There are a number of critical pieces of information that prove there are five prayer times frames described in Quran, and you took it away from everyone on the forum. For instance did you know that 5039-40 refers to Salaat because we have to "Glorify at the ends of the prostrations" (regular plural = 3 or more prostrations). Do you know the detail that links the verse to 20130, proving that 20130 refers indeed about Salaat time frames as well ? How can you decide on your own, even if it is a recurrent debate, to silence such a subject ! People suffer because of the mess created by divisions over Salaat and they want answers. At least give them a chance. Don't kill the debate.
... But you did. And this is why I rarely spend anytime on this forum (because of censorship, disguised into something else...). God is always the ultimate judge of what we do.

Pierre

Mazhar

The Salaat and all rituals of Islam have been revealed to Abraham and not Muhammad; all messengers and prophets since Adam performed the ritual prayer as described in the Quran.

? All rituals of Islam as we know them today (Ritual Prayer, Zak?t, Fast of Ramadan, Hajj and Oumrah) have been revealed to Abraham. Ishmael, all Muslim prophets among the sons of Israel and Muhammad all practiced the same religion as Abraham (Islam), especially the ritual prayer and Zak?t, as the Quran shows it repeatedly

Good effort. Have you found mention about Salat in the days, and by the Messengers of Allah before Ibrahim alahissalam, in the Grand Qur'aan?

Ka'aba was built by Ibrahim and Ismail alahissalam which has to be confronted face to face while standing for As-salat. Muslims do not believe in the sanctity of directions, unlike Christians and Jews who respectively sanctify East and West, they confront Masjid ul Haram, a physical entity with demarcated boundaries, while outside it wherever they may be, and confront Ka'aba while inside Masjid ul Haram for which reason they stand in circle and not in straight line.

6619

Good effort. Have you found mention about Salat in the days, and by the Messengers of Allah before Ibrahim alahissalam, in the Grand Qur'aan?

Ka'aba was built by Ibrahim and Ismail alahissalam which has to be confronted face to face while standing for As-salat. Muslims do not believe in the sanctity of directions, unlike Christians and Jews who respectively sanctify East and West, they confront Masjid ul Haram, a physical entity with demarcated boundaries, while outside it wherever they may be, and confront Ka'aba while inside Masjid ul Haram for which reason they stand in circle and not in straight line.

Salaam dear Mazhar,

(195 They are the ones (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Ishmael, Idris?) who were showered with God?s blessings, among the prophets issued from Adam?s offspring and those whom we carried with Noah, as well as from Abraham and Israel?s offspring from them, we guided and appointed (prophets); when we recite to them verses (revealed) by the Most Gracious, they fall in prostration, weeping. (1959) After them (the prophets issued from Adam?s offspring) came generations who altered the ritual prayer, and followed their lusts; they will (soon) experience the consequences of (their) deviance.

This verse hints that the ritual of Salaat was already a reality before Abraham.

The main article has a lot more details than the summary on many topics (http//www.islamrevolution.org/salaatinquran.htm).
One of the novelties in my research is understanding why "the extremities of the daylight" in 11114 is a dual plural (refering to two time frames = Dawn and Sunset) and the same expression is a regular plural in 20130 (refering to the FOUR extremities of the daylight = Crack of Dawn + Sunrise + Sunset + end of twilight). The implications just destroy the two or three (or four) Salaat theories for whoever is willing to study carefully the article, because God tells us to "glorify (HIM) at the (FOUR) extremities of the daylight" (20130) which implies the FIVE ritual prayers. This is why it was so crucial for Wakas and Freeminds to hide my article where it cannot be seen and dismiss it supposedly as something that does not bring anything new, when the new crucial pieces of information in the article actually destroy the deviation of "less than Five salawat".

When you want to hide the truth, especially when it is something big, just pretend like it is nothing, hide it, ignore it, let it die out. This is what people who lost the ritual of Salaat and strive to lead astray as many people as possible are used to doing.

Peace.

Pierre

Wakas

peace Pierre,

I assume since you never answered my simple question, you did not read the compilation of links prior to writing your article, which is a pity.

Also, whilst I am somewhat flattered that you think a comment of mine will result in no-one "ever" reading your article, I'm afraid you were quickly disproved by Mazhar's reply, assuming he read from your article in order to quote from it. I moved your thread to the "salat and zakat" section of the forum, i.e. the correct category, if that is what you were referring to.

It is emotional outbursts such as these that lessen one's credibility. I recommend sticking to a logical and evidence based approach.

As I skimmed your article, I noted it contained many flaws. For the purposes of constructive discussion, I will highlight some of the ones you brought up here. In brief

The complete disappearance of the sun (20130) is the time limit to observe Salaat, not one minute before. Therefore Duluk al Shams means the decline of the sun at noon. No other way around it.

Yet in 1778, according to your view, this would mean that the time-period for salat (singular) is from noon to darkness of night, which is after the sun has set.
Please resolve this problem in your view.

There are a number of critical pieces of information that prove there are five prayer times frames described in Quran, and you took it away from everyone on the forum. For instance did you know that 5039-40 refers to Salaat because we have to "Glorify at the ends of the prostrations" (regular plural = 3 or more prostrations). Do you the detail that links the verse to 20130, proving that 20130 refers indeed about Salaat time frames ?

You take SBH in 20130 to mean "salat" yet make an obvious error by citing 5039-40, because in these two verses it says "SBH Him and after the prostrations" which would mean one should "salat" at the ends of the prostrations IF you were being consistent.
Please resolve this problem in your view.

...is a regular plural in 20130 (refering to the FOUR extremities of the daylight = Crack of Dawn + Sunrise + Sunset + end of twilight). The implications just destroy the two or three (or four) Salaat theories for whoever is willing to study carefully the article, because God tells us to "glorify (HIM) at the (FOUR) extremities of the daylight" (20130) which implies the FIVE ritual prayers.

The regular Arabic plural is 3 or more, NOT 4.
Please resolve this problem in your view.

Please note I have only pointed out the flaws you have mentioned in this thread. Your article is multiple pages long. Please reflect on this point.

Readers should note that whilst I used "prostration" in my translations, I only did so because this is what the author of the thread used, to avoid confusion. My view on SuJuD can be read here http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

6619

Salaam Wakas. It is exactly what I suspected you did. You did not read the article, and you were not interested in doing so because you had already subconsciously decided that no matter what you were going to reject it.

It is emotional outbursts such as these that lessen one's credibility. I recommend sticking to a logical and evidence based approach.

So let?s see if you are capable of sticking to sound logic and evidence or if you will try to deny no matter what if sound evidence is presented to you.

Yet in 1778, according to your view, this would mean that the time-period for salat (singular) is from noon to darkness of night, which is after the sun has set.
Please resolve this problem in your view.

Are you interested in looking at the Quran in its general context of just in taking verses in isolation out of their context ? 1778 defines the overall period for the practice of Salaat, from Noon to Dawn. Duluk al shams cannot be the time frame allocated for Maghrib because it takes about one more minute after ?the rubbing of the sun? to completely disappear. This proves that Duluk al Shams refers to the Salaat time frame starting at Midday not the one at sunset. The time limit for the sunset Salaat is defined in 20130 as the (complete) "disappearance of the sun".

The regular Arabic plural is 3 or more, NOT 4.
Please resolve this problem in your view.

Read my article attentively before you comment because it makes you look bad.
In 11114, the expression ?the extremities of the Daylight? is dual. It refers to two time frames Dawn and Sunset.
How do I know this for certain ?
Because the regular plural expression ?the extremities of the daylight? (three or more extremities by definition) in 20130 mirrors the dual expression in 11114 (Dawn and Sunset). There cannot be three extremities of the daylight with Dawn and Sunset, nor can you possibly find in an entire 24 hour period three extremities of the daylight except for the FOUR extremities of the daylight which FRAME Dawn and Sunset
(1) Crack of Dawn + (2) Appearance of the sun + (3) Disappearance of the Sun + (4) End of the twilight (When the last daylight has just vanished from the sky).
I challenge you to find three extremities or any other number than the four extremities I have just described. If you do not answer this challenge, it will mean you are evading the truth.

Your article is multiple pages long. Please reflect on this point.

Salaat is the most important ritual in Islam together with Zakat. I presented some crucial new decisive pieces of information in my article which I pray people will get to know. It is not a matter of how long or short, it is about the unity of Islam. The summary is about eight pages long and reads very easily. How difficult is that ?

Readers should note that whilst I used "prostration" in my translations, I only did so because this is what the author of the thread used, to avoid confusion. My view on SuJuD can be read here http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

This is why Freeminds have completely disconnected with the reality of Quran. Every time something contradicts their views, they reinvent the meanings of words. It is revisionism, not pure Islam.
A Sujud is a prostration. Quran describes the mark that believers have on their faces (foreheads) because of prostrating. How can anyone reject such a blatant truth ?! It really saddens me.
(2226) And we revealed to Abraham the location of the temple ?Do not associate anything beside Me, and purify My temple for those who do the Tawaf (ritual of circling the Kaaba), and those who stand, bow and prostrate (during Salaat).
(4829) Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those with him are fierce against the disbelievers and compassionate among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating seeking God?s favors and acceptance. Their faces (foreheads) bear the marks left by the prostrations (most notably in Salaat). Such is their parable in the Torah as well as their parable in the Gospel they are like a seed which puts forth its sprout, then strengthens itself, becomes thick and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers, while enraging the disbelievers. God has promised forgiveness as well as an immense reward to those among them who believe and do deeds of righteousness.

The only real reason why you refuse to see ?Sujud? as a ?prostration? is that you are too proud to prostrate physically before God, and because you refuse to see that 5039-40 is about actual ritual prayers involving physical ?prostrations? (regular plural = three or more in 5040). The language of 5039-40 is incontrovertibly clear for anyone who is sincere it is about ritual prayer time frames, and the language of 5039 is almost word for word identical to the language in 20130, which shows that both are about ritual prayers and Salaat time frames.
(5039) So be patient regarding what they say, and celebrate (O Muhammad) the praise(s) of your Lord before the rising of the sun ( &#1616 and before sunset ( &#1616, (5040) And (starting) from the night ( &#1616, so glorify Him (&#1615, as well as at the ends of the prostrations ( &#1616.
(20130) So be patient regarding what they say, and celebrate (O Muhammad) the praise(s) of your Lord before the rising of the sun ( &#1616 and before its disappearance ( &#1575, as well as from the (first) hours of the night ( &#1604, and celebrate (the praise of your Lord) at the extremities of the daylight ( &#1616, that you may be content.

If you do not change Wakas, you will be stunned on the Day of Judgment because of rejecting such clear evidence and because of all the people you will have misled. Be very careful. You should look at the truth as it is, not as you would like it to be.

7206 Those at your Lord are never too proud to worship Him; they glorify Him and fall prostrate before Him.

Why not simply admit that Freeminds are on the wrong path and accept the straightforward meaning of the Quran ? Why try to make crooked a path that is straight ?

Peace.

Pierre

Wakas

peace Pierre,

Thanks for attempting to answer my questions. I am more than happy for readers of the forum to read our exchange and make up their own minds.

To you, your deen, and to me, mine.

loxbox13

I was excited really when i saw your message saying u did so much research, visited your site about salats and all, thank u for the efforts, but, is your post u said most people are not gonna accept because of ego, what if it's u who don(t want to accept reality because of you

u first based the number of salat word mentionned in the quran, u said it's 5 times, than rashad khalfa code19 came into my mind so i went to count salawat, i found much more, than went for ramadan if i see 30 or 19, meaning if it's 30 days or 29 day; i found around 18 so maybe we're supposed to fast 18 months in a year or 18 days in a month
so i realised that this is not the style of the quran
the salat is Tashriia, a law , imposed on mumins, so it's rules and regulations has to be clear just as divorce, or fasting etc....
so the law of salat is in a cleaar verse , duluk shams to ghassak layl , it's obviously a time range , duluk in arabic means rubbing, no matter how u put it , and allah sais adueem salat liduluk shams to or until ghassak layl
the rubbing of the sun to the ghassak of the night
and the second one is quran fadjr , comes with salat fadjr ,
than after giving the fardh, obligatory salat with their time range, he gave the salat nafila, even though it(s between them , but he gave it last, here we understand that nafila can be done only at night
the way of salat doesn't need a manuel, we all know how to wash, and the salat is standing and prostrating only, standing while reading, and prostrating for tasbeeh
this is what i understand so far
if u read arabic, i might post a message
wakas maybe if u understand arabic, i will post an article if someone can translate it, and study it and correct it if possible for those who believe in salat as prostrating physically
thank u

loxbox13

Can someone translate, even though this guy is talking about 3 salat, i believe it's 2 , he says it's three because tarafay bahar et zouloufan mina llayl , for me tarafay nahar are the am and pf of the day when u add to them zullufan mina layl, they mean colse to the night, fadjr and isha, i posted it because i believe he is closer to the truth

( ) ( ?)<> ( ) ( ) ( ) ?? ?? <> ( ) ( &#1585 ( ) ( )

.

( ) < 114> .

( ) .

( ..) ( ) .

<>
( ) .

( ) .

( )

( ) <> .

( ) < > ( ) <> .

( ) <> . ( ) <> .

loxbox13

6619

If u study the quran without numbers, u will realise that you are missing a lot
rashad khalfa made huge mistakes in his preaching creer
he pray 5 times a day and he say he learned it from abraham from generation to generation
how can he say that ? that's how hadith came into place in the first place
people pray 5 times because of hadiths , not because generation to generation
if u read les tafssir, u realise when they imposed 5 salats
sometimes we hear u saying the quran is fully detailed, but there is no salat in it
u know the reason u see it this way, and why u keep defending this 5 salats daily ? it's because u can't stand more mistakes made by khalfa
u know why khalfa made all these mistakes? it's because he concentrated in 2 things, numbers to prouve his miracle, and more time studying on how to prouve his messengership
that's why he missed so much things in the quran and made mistakes so obvious even a non speaking arabic doesn't make them
do u study the quran or u still decoding?
why don't u search for the times of salat and how to do it in the quran ?
don't u say the quran is fully detailed?
even u came up with numbers, salat is mentioned 5 times

( )

do u see these 2 verses ? Allah is talking about animals, they know how to pray for allah programed them that way, but us, we're not programed and it is allah who show us how to pray, not abraham no mohamed nor anyone else
I like when u say we follow Abraham, but we know about abraham only through the book that came to Mohamed, r u saying u follow mohamed ? or u can't say it !!!
Prophet mohamed prayed 2 times a day acording to the detailed Koran, and his prayer was standing and prostrating according to the quran also
if u can't see it, it doesn't mean it's not there, the problem isn't in the book, the problem is in us
I give u an exemple , how many times u stand in a salat ? because there is no ruku3 is salat , so we say how many times we stand right ? because it's only standing and prostrating, this is the whole details that's why u don(t see, it , everyone is looking for a complicated rituel, that's why they're so different in their researc
well now that all the position details are in the quran, what about how many tiles u stad?
u know this verse?

this verse say stand twice and once
better study the quran than study numbers before u put in your site that u did scholarly research
standing u just read the quran and prayers from the quran
prostrating only tasbeeh

u end it with Hamdullah rabi aalamine
it's as simple as that,

it's not really a ritual, it's glorifying allah and while stitting u can study the quran as remembrance, stay in touch with the quran, but not counting though lol, u have that range of time u can do all that
this is what i believe Wakas HELP! LOL
can u analyse my mistakes please, thanks

ayman

Peace Pierre

I pray it will help people, I am not here to start a new dispute, but simply to present a number of new observations derived from the Quran.

Can you tell us what is "new"? As far as I can tell, your so called Salaat is no different from that of sectarians and 19ers. You are just as lost as them. You just went in a big circle to justify your preconceptions and came back to square 1.

Peace,

Ayman

loxbox13

Salat standing and prostrating is everywhere
some verses
.

if salat is standing and prostrating, than it is very very detailed in the quran and simple , a kid of 2 years can learn it

ayman

Peace Loxbox13,

If you know Arabic then I suggest you download the following article in PDF format

http//www.scribd.com/doc/28890747/Arabic-Salat-Article

Peace,

Ayman

loxbox13

Peace Loxbox13,

If you know Arabic then I suggest you download the following article in PDF format

http//www.scribd.com/doc/28890747/Arabic-Salat-Article

Peace,

Ayman

Sounds logic, i came with a difference,
I feel like salat is standing reading and prostrating, i don't know why i feel there is this part , maybe i am right and maybe the sect that still in me keep telling me u have to prostrate litteraly at least once
but i know that reading the quran is the most important part, and doing it while sitting or any position confortable
so i am not to far frim the pdf u sent me, thanks for that
for now, i do it the way of the pdf u sent me, and finish it with one prostration than stand up and go to bed
the closest possible to the quran lol
good article, thanx

I knew it, I knew it, peophet mohamed abolished all rituels , that's why they fought him

the only reason why i do the standing and prostrating at least one, is because in the begining of the revelation, the prophet use to stand half the night for his salat, what was he reading while he had only a small sourah or 2
can u find an answer to thatN thanks

kgwithnob

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600954.msg256826#msg256826

Peace,
Khalil

Mazhar

This verse hints that the ritual of Salaat was already a reality before Abraham.

Salam 6619

If you please look at the Ayat you will find that the Pronoun is referring back to Ibrahim alahissalam and others after him, and not to Adam and Nuh alahissalam.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/019.%20Maryam%20Siddiqa/19.58.gif

These were those upon whom Allah showered blessings from amongst the Elevated and Chosen Distinct Persons.

Who are they? This refers back to those under discussion/mention from 1941.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/019.%20Maryam%20Siddiqa/19.59.gif
Thereafter/for reason, the later generations after them succeeded who neglectfully discarded the Ass-sa'laat and they practically followed desires and lusts and conjectural fascinations.

1951-63

Mazhar