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In depth study on Salaat in Quran

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  • A Offline
    A Offline
    Asana
    wrote on last edited by
    #21

    Peace Pierre

    <<<A Sujud is a prostration.>>>

    Sujud doesn?t alwayes mean a prostration?.The below verse is so clear on it

    Recall that we said, "Enter this town, where you will find as many provisions as you like. Just enter the gate humbly/prostrating, and treat the people nicely. We will then forgive your sins, and increase the reward for the pious."

    And by definition the 4829 doesn?t mean the mark of physical prostration on foreheads.
    Please refrain from adding your own interpretation in parenthesis of 4829 as you did.
    Just recently a so-called submitter went back to his Sunni path by interpreting the 4829 the you do by saying that he doesn?t see the mark of prostration on submitters face/foreheads and above that in Rashad?s forehead!....Today reading your interpretation made me speechless too .

    The second point is that I totally disagree with you when you say we should seek refuge in God from Satan in our Contact prayer because God asks us whenever we read Quran.
    Contact prayer is not recitation of the Quran?It?s Contacting our Lord?mentioning name of Satan in Contact Prayer nullifies it the same way when other names like name of prophet to be mentioned in it.
    Contact Prayer must be pure of mentioning of any names other than God.
    I respect you for your research but I disagree with your interpretation of some of the verses.

    Peace
    Asana

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    • M Offline
      M Offline
      mmkhan
      wrote on last edited by
      #22

      Salaaman Asana,

      The only chapter in the Quran is Al-Fatiha/Key that contains essence of our worshiping and obedience to God Alone without mentioning any command or instruction and laws for us ?.The Interesting point is that God reads us in CH 2 as ?This Book? in verse 2 highlighting it that from now on this Book what will be all about ?..God could have put that word in CH 1 but He didn?t..You know why? Well I leave it to you to find the answer to it whenever you read back the Quran to God based on 4916.

      22 never says 'This Book'

      But it says 'That Book'. Look at the Arabic text, it says ' '

      Zaalika does mean 'That'
      Haaza means 'This'

      As in 179

      This AlQuraan
      That AlKitaab

      May Allah guide us all towards the correct path.

      Mohammed M. Khan

      1 Reply Last reply
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      • L Offline
        L Offline
        loxbox13
        wrote on last edited by
        #23

        I know now that rukoo is noy incline of the back, because incline in arabic means inhinaa , et ruka3 come from the group of movements by the leg to the feet
        rokouu has a family of similar names
        rokba = knee
        Rakadja = run
        Rakla = kick
        = to mount with feet
        kaab = Heel
        = kouaan = hands
        = kuaa = hand

        the feet and hads together are called kuaan
        so one of the? is kuaa and the others <re kaab n they have is common , these two letters are common for feet and hands, but they form more the lettrs of hands, so it has to add the R to mentions both hands and feet , wich is the first letters of rukba ans is added to say to give the word and wich means hands so hands and knees on the ground, a transition to Sujud, therefpor rukuaa has the same meaning as kharra
        at leat now i understand that rukaa is not bowing, because bowing in arabic is Inhinaa
        so forget about bowing is salat,

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        • A Offline
          A Offline
          Asana
          wrote on last edited by
          #24

          Salam mmkhan

          Thanks for the reminder ?I know the meaning of the word of Zalika but the point is that when it gets translated if we say ?that Book? the reader get confused of which Book God is talking about?.An Arabic reader would understand it by heart it?s talking about Quran but not for an English reader.
          If you look at the some translations in English you would see it?s ?this? instead of ?that?.

          Peace
          Asana

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          • 6 Offline
            6 Offline
            6619
            wrote on last edited by
            #25

            Salaam to all,

            To Asana

            When it comes to Salaat, only those who are arrogant refuse to prostrate physically before God.

            (17107) Proclaim ?Believe in it (the Quran) or not, verily, when it is recited to those who were blessed with knowledge before this, (1st prostration they fall on their chins prostrating. (1710 And they proclaim ?Praise be to our Lord ! Indeed the prophecy of our Lord has assuredly been fulfilled !? (17109) (2nd prostration And they fall on their chins in tears, as it increases their reverence.

            If the chins of the people the book listening to the recitation of the Quran did not touch the ground while they prostrated, then I am completely astray and arrogantly deny the truth, and Ayman and Wakas are guided.
            If their chins actually physically touched the ground during their prostration, then Ayman and Wakas are astray and arrogantly deny the truth, and I am guided regarding the fact that prostration is a physical prostration.

            Same case for 4829. Only people filled with arrogance refuse to prostrate physically and well as mentally before God in their ritual prayers. As for the mark due to prostration, as I said in my article, it is not the type of self inflicted mark that al Qaida type of people inflict on themselves. It simply acknowledges that the foreheads of those who submit to God actually touch the ground. People who observe Salaat 5 times a day have an almost indistinguishable mark on their foreheads due to the prostrations. Many years ago when I was discovered Islam as a sunni, to my surprise, I remember friends of mine had already noticed that on my forehead, and same with you Asana or anyone else if you observe Salaat five times a day, look at yourself very closely in the mirror under proper light, and you will see an almost indistinguishable, very slight mark. No one wil notice that mark unless they know you are Muslim and look very closely.

            ?I seek refuge in God, from satan the outcast?
            When you utter this phrase submitting to God?s command in 1698, Salaat has not started yet. It starts with the takbir. Furthermore in 1698 when it is said ?When you recite the Quran, seek refuge in God from satan, the outcast.?, satan is mentioned beside God, but obviously as being rejecting from God and our lives. Is 1698 a verse from Quran or from some evil forces ?!

            As for reciting the Quran in Salaat, I will simply say that Salaat is not just about establishing contact, it is a two way communication between God and us. We Glorify Him and I cannot agree more that sura 1 is the perfect glorification, and He responds to us when we recite the Quran and we meditate on the message he sent to us.
            As I said in the article, it is especially recommended to recite the Quran in our Salaat at Dawn (177, and 2945 is very clear about it as well. I did not make it up, and I would never dare to claim (God forbid) it is haraam to recite the Quran during Salaat as it would be creating a false prohibition. We know how catastrophic it is to create false prohibitions.
            It is absolutely wonderful to observe Salaat five times a day, recite sura 1, and a few verses or suras from the Quran on which we deeply meditate and make the Quran part of our daily lives.

            To Loxbox 13

            I patiently detailed the five times frames allocated to Salaat in my article. You can only accept it if you understand that 5039-40 is about Salaat time frames involving physical ?prostrations? (regular plural = 3 or more, as in 5040). People of the book in 17107 ?prostrated? on their chins, which proves that people who claim prostration is not physical are not Muslims but people filled with arrogance and dividers. To them their religion, to me my religion (Islam).

            As for Rashad Khalifa, he simply opened the door to Quran alone. He made a number of mistakes. He is dead, and we need to move on and focus on Quran alone, as he preached, because following his hadiths subject us to his misinterpretations. Quran is the final messenger.

            Duluk al Shams does not mean ?rubbing? in the context of Quran. It is flat wrong, unless you believe the earth is flat and the sun actually touches the line of the horizon rubbing it, as Ayman and Wakas seem to believe. As far as I know a few miles separate planet earth and the sun, but I may be wrong.

            I took the time to explain in detail in my article that 20130 makes it clear that the time limit to observe Salaat at Sunset is FROM THE DISAPPEARANCE OF THE SUN because the previous prayer is said to be ?BEFORE its disappearance? ( &#1575. (http//www.islamrevolution.org/salaatinquran.htm, section 16.4). It is not one minute before, when supposedly the sun start rubbing the line of the horizon. This leaves only one correct explanation Duluk al shams is the ?decline of the sun? starting at Noon. No other way around it, except for people like Ayman and Wakas who will deny the truth no matter what.

            1778 provides the overall time range for the five prayers, showing there is no Salaat between Sunrise and Noon. Other verses unmistakably provide the detail of all five Salaat times frames (http//www.islamrevolution.org/salaatsummary.htm section 17.2.1 to 17.2.5).

            The Salaat is not ?standing and prostrating only? as you said it is, I hope you carefully reflect on the following
            (2226) And we revealed to Abraham the location of the temple ?Do not associate anything beside Me, and purify My temple for those who do the Tawaf (ritual of circling the Kaaba), and those who stand, bow and prostrate (during Salaat).
            The Quran makes ?to bow? and ?to prostrate? intersect FIVE times in the Quran (2125, 9112, 2226, 2277, 4829).

            Raka'a has several meanings among which "to have one's back bent", "stoop the head to kneel" (as Mary does in kneeling position before she prostrates in 343). People are free to reinvent the wheel if they want, like Freeminds.
            People who do not (1) Stand, (2) Bow, (3) prostrate in their Salaat are not Muslims. They are like satan who arrogantly refused to prostrate when God commanded him to do so. Even a Masjid is literally ?a place of prostration?.

            As for Ayman and Wakas and like people, I am waiting for the day they will face God and will be unable to prostrate, because they were filled with arrogance

            6842 The day will come when they will be exposed, and they will be required to fall prostrate, but they will be unable to.

            Pierre

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            0
            • L Offline
              L Offline
              loxbox13
              wrote on last edited by
              #26

              Salaam to all,

              To Asana

              When it comes to Salaat, only those who are arrogant refuse to prostrate physically before God.

              (17107) Proclaim ?Believe in it (the Quran) or not, verily, when it is recited to those who were blessed with knowledge before this, (1st prostration they fall on their chins prostrating. (1710 And they proclaim ?Praise be to our Lord ! Indeed the prophecy of our Lord has assuredly been fulfilled !? (17109) (2nd prostration And they fall on their chins in tears, as it increases their reverence.

              If the chins of the people the book listening to the recitation of the Quran did not touch the ground while they prostrated, then I am completely astray and arrogantly deny the truth, and Ayman and Wakas are guided.
              If their chins actually physically touched the ground during their prostration, then Ayman and Wakas are astray and arrogantly deny the truth, and I am guided regarding the fact that prostration is a physical prostration.

              Same case for 4829. Only people filled with arrogance refuse to prostrate physically and well as mentally before God in their ritual prayers. As for the mark due to prostration, as I said in my article, it is not the type of self inflicted mark that al Qaida type of people inflict on themselves. It simply acknowledges that the foreheads of those who submit to God actually touch the ground. People who observe Salaat 5 times a day have an almost indistinguishable mark on their foreheads due to the prostrations. Many years ago when I was discovered Islam as a sunni, to my surprise, I remember friends of mine had already noticed that on my forehead, and same with you Asana or anyone else if you observe Salaat five times a day, look at yourself very closely in the mirror under proper light, and you will see an almost indistinguishable, very slight mark. No one wil notice that mark unless they know you are Muslim and look very closely.

              ?I seek refuge in God, from satan the outcast?
              When you utter this phrase submitting to God?s command in 1698, Salaat has not started yet. It starts with the takbir. Furthermore in 1698 when it is said ?When you recite the Quran, seek refuge in God from satan, the outcast.?, satan is mentioned beside God, but obviously as being rejecting from God and our lives. Is 1698 a verse from Quran or from some evil forces ?!

              As for reciting the Quran in Salaat, I will simply say that Salaat is not just about establishing contact, it is a two way communication between God and us. We Glorify Him and I cannot agree more that sura 1 is the perfect glorification, and He responds to us when we recite the Quran and we meditate on the message he sent to us.
              As I said in the article, it is especially recommended to recite the Quran in our Salaat at Dawn (177, and 2945 is very clear about it as well. I did not make it up, and I would never dare to claim (God forbid) it is haraam to recite the Quran during Salaat as it would be creating a false prohibition. We know how catastrophic it is to create false prohibitions.
              It is absolutely wonderful to observe Salaat five times a day, recite sura 1, and a few verses or suras from the Quran on which we deeply meditate and make the Quran part of our daily lives.

              To Loxbox 13

              I patiently detailed the five times frames allocated to Salaat in my article. You can only accept it if you understand that 5039-40 is about Salaat time frames involving physical ?prostrations? (regular plural = 3 or more, as in 5040). People of the book in 17107 ?prostrated? on their chins, which proves that people who claim prostration is not physical are not Muslims but people filled with arrogance and dividers. To them their religion, to me my religion (Islam).

              As for Rashad Khalifa, he simply opened the door to Quran alone. He made a number of mistakes. He is dead, and we need to move on and focus on Quran alone, as he preached, because following his hadiths subject us to his misinterpretations. Quran is the final messenger.

              Duluk al Shams does not mean ?rubbing? in the context of Quran. It is flat wrong, unless you believe the earth is flat and the sun actually touches the line of the horizon rubbing it, as Ayman and Wakas seem to believe. As far as I know a few miles separate planet earth and the sun, but I may be wrong.

              I took the time to explain in detail in my article that 20130 makes it clear that the time limit to observe Salaat at Sunset is FROM THE DISAPPEARANCE OF THE SUN because the previous prayer is said to be ?BEFORE its disappearance? ( &#1575. (http//www.islamrevolution.org/salaatinquran.htm, section 16.4). It is not one minute before, when supposedly the sun start rubbing the line of the horizon. This leaves only one correct explanation Duluk al shams is the ?decline of the sun? starting at Noon. No other way around it, except for people like Ayman and Wakas who will deny the truth no matter what.

              1778 provides the overall time range for the five prayers, showing there is no Salaat between Sunrise and Noon. Other verses unmistakably provide the detail of all five Salaat times frames (http//www.islamrevolution.org/salaatsummary.htm section 17.2.1 to 17.2.5).

              The Salaat is not ?standing and prostrating only? as you said it is, I hope you carefully reflect on the following
              (2226) And we revealed to Abraham the location of the temple ?Do not associate anything beside Me, and purify My temple for those who do the Tawaf (ritual of circling the Kaaba), and those who stand, bow and prostrate (during Salaat).
              The Quran makes ?to bow? and ?to prostrate? intersect FIVE times in the Quran (2125, 9112, 2226, 2277, 4829).

              Raka'a has several meanings among which "to have one's back bent", "stoop the head to kneel" (as Mary does in kneeling position before she prostrates in 343). People are free to reinvent the wheel if they want, like Freeminds.
              People who do not (1) Stand, (2) Bow, (3) prostrate in their Salaat are not Muslims. They are like satan who arrogantly refused to prostrate when God commanded him to do so. Even a Masjid is literally ?a place of prostration?.

              As for Ayman and Wakas and like people, I am waiting for the day they will face God and will be unable to prostrate, because they were filled with arrogance

              6842 The day will come when they will be exposed, and they will be required to fall prostrate, but they will be unable to.

              Pierre

              al adhkane in arabic doesn't mean chins, it means lowest parts
              dhakn is shin, lowest part of the face
              adhkan are the mowest parts , meaning the ground
              the adhkan of the human body are the feet not the chins
              the adhkan in general are the gound
              One man or woman cannot have chins but chin
              when it's chins it means down to the ground or to the feet

              who did your interpretation?

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              • 6 Offline
                6 Offline
                6619
                wrote on last edited by
                #27

                al adhkane in arabic doesn't mean chins, it means lowest parts
                dhakn is shin, lowest part of the face
                adhkan are the mowest parts , meaning the ground
                the adhkan of the human body are the feet not the chins
                the adhkan in general are the gound
                One man or woman cannot have chins but chin
                when it's chins it means down to the ground or to the feet

                who did your interpretation?

                Salaam dear Loxbox13,

                In my Arabic dictionaries, the root Zaqana means "to strike on the chin", "lean the chin upon" (with 'alaa); Azqan means "chin", sometimes "beard". Some translations render the meaning as "faces" in 17107, I kept the literal meaning as "they prostrate on their chins".
                I suggest you check
                368
                For we place around their necks shackles, up to their chins. Consequently, they become locked in their disbelief.

                17107
                Proclaim ?Believe in it (the Quran) or not, verily, when it is recited to those who were blessed with knowledge before this, (1st prostration) they fall on their chins prostrating.

                I ckecked about 25 translations online, not one goes your way and they unanimously translate "chins", "faces".
                I have no idea where you got that meaning, and I understand a little bit more why your translation regarding "raka'a" was so off.

                I advice you with all my heart not to listen to some arrogant people on this forum who will be totally unable to prostrate before God on the Day of Judgment, because they arrogantly refused to do so during this lifetime, and because they twisted the original and straightforward meaning of words to fit their horrible agenda Destroy real Islam and follow their own egos.
                They do not even pray towards Mecca. They claim Mecca is not the Sacred Masjid when it is cast in stone in 4824-25 (again they distort the real meaning), they lost the five prayers perfectly detailed in the Quran (http//www.islamrevolution.org/salaatsummary.htm, Salaat times 17.2.1 to 17.2.5), they claim there is no lunar calendar in the Quran, and so on. They have completely lost touch with the Quran and Islam. They may be be Free Minds, in reality they are Lost Minds, and certainly not Muslims.
                They even allow trashy subjects like defending homosexuality on this forum, when any decent Muslim knows about the lesson of Sodome and Gomorah, and knows full well that homosexuality is an abomination. A guy like Ayman fools people because he uses a scholarly tone in his articles and some uneducated people are impressed, but there is nothing of value in his message, except a complete revisionism of Islam to feed his ego.

                This is the last place on earth where you want to learn about Islam; the only reason I am here it is try to help people regarding salaat, then I will take off.

                Peace.

                Pierre

                1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • K Offline
                  K Offline
                  kgwithnob
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #28

                  I advice you with all my heart not to listen to some arrogant people on this forum who will be totally unable to prostrate before God on the Day of Judgment, because they arrogantly refused to do so during this lifetime, and because they twisted the original and straightforward meaning of words to fit their horrible agenda Destroy real Islam and follow their own egos.They do not even pray towards Mecca. They claim Mecca is not the Sacred Masjid when it is cast in stone in 4824-25 (again they distort the real meaning), they lost the five prayers perfectly detailed in the Quran (http//www.islamrevolution.org/salaatsummary.htm, Salaat times 17.2.1 to 17.2.5), they claim there is no lunar calendar in the Quran, and so on. They have completely lost touch with the Quran and Islam. They may be be Free Minds, in reality they are Lost Minds, and certainly not Muslims.
                  They even allow trashy subjects like defending homosexuality on this forum, when any decent Muslim knows about the lesson of Sodome and Gomorah, and knows full well that homosexuality is an abomination. A guy like Ayman fools people because he uses a scholarly tone in his articles and some uneducated people are impressed, but there is nothing of value in his message, except a complete revisionism of Islam to feed his ego.

                  This is the last place on earth where you want to learn about Islam; the only reason I am here it is try to help people regarding salaat, then I will take off.

                  Exactly Pierre, just see the verse 2543,44 among so many in The Qur'aan for description of these ingrates.

                  I do recommend that you stay and continue your JIHAAD. At least you may be able to reach the innocent newcomers and "bystanders" and preventing them from getting lost. That is the whole purpose of propagating the true Islam according to The Qur'aan. That is the mission according to the principles of PROHIBITING VICE & ADVOCATING VIRTUE.

                  Peace,
                  Khalil

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                  0
                  • M Offline
                    M Offline
                    mmkhan
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #29

                    Salaaman Asana,

                    Salam mmkhan

                    Thanks for the reminder ?I know the meaning of the word of Zalika but the point is that when it gets translated if we say ?that Book? the reader get confused of which Book God is talking about?.An Arabic reader would understand it by heart it?s talking about Quran but not for an English reader.
                    If you look at the some translations in English you would see it?s ?this? instead of ?that?.

                    Peace
                    Asana

                    Please check on AlKitaab http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601702.msg268251#msg268251

                    Hope you like it inshaAllah

                    May Allah guide us all towards the correct path.

                    Mohammed M. Khan

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • L Offline
                      L Offline
                      loxbox13
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #30

                      Salaam dear Loxbox13,

                      In my Arabic dictionaries, the root Zaqana means "to strike on the chin", "lean the chin upon" (with 'alaa); Azqan means "chin", sometimes "beard". Some translations render the meaning as "faces" in 17107, I kept the literal meaning as "they prostrate on their chins".
                      I suggest you check
                      368
                      For we place around their necks shackles, up to their chins. Consequently, they become locked in their disbelief.

                      17107
                      Proclaim ?Believe in it (the Quran) or not, verily, when it is recited to those who were blessed with knowledge before this, (1st prostration) they fall on their chins prostrating.

                      I ckecked about 25 translations online, not one goes your way and they unanimously translate "chins", "faces".
                      I have no idea where you got that meaning, and I understand a little bit more why your translation regarding "raka'a" was so off.

                      I advice you with all my heart not to listen to some arrogant people on this forum who will be totally unable to prostrate before God on the Day of Judgment, because they arrogantly refused to do so during this lifetime, and because they twisted the original and straightforward meaning of words to fit their horrible agenda Destroy real Islam and follow their own egos.
                      They do not even pray towards Mecca. They claim Mecca is not the Sacred Masjid when it is cast in stone in 4824-25 (again they distort the real meaning), they lost the five prayers perfectly detailed in the Quran (http//www.islamrevolution.org/salaatsummary.htm, Salaat times 17.2.1 to 17.2.5), they claim there is no lunar calendar in the Quran, and so on. They have completely lost touch with the Quran and Islam. They may be be Free Minds, in reality they are Lost Minds, and certainly not Muslims.
                      They even allow trashy subjects like defending homosexuality on this forum, when any decent Muslim knows about the lesson of Sodome and Gomorah, and knows full well that homosexuality is an abomination. A guy like Ayman fools people because he uses a scholarly tone in his articles and some uneducated people are impressed, but there is nothing of value in his message, except a complete revisionism of Islam to feed his ego.

                      This is the last place on earth where you want to learn about Islam; the only reason I am here it is try to help people regarding salaat, then I will take off.

                      Peace.

                      Pierre

                      368
                      For we place around their necks shackles, up to their chins. Consequently, they become locked in their disbelief.

                      Of you read this translation it doesn't make sense, because chained to the chins doesn't make u bot abke to move, but chained to the ground, it doesn't not allow u to move, , just think about it, unless allah is talking non sense

                      17107
                      Proclaim ?Believe in it (the Quran) or not, verily, when it is recited to those who were blessed with knowledge before this, (1st prostration) they fall on their chins prostrating.
                      This one to , it said yakhorou ila adhlan, meaning fall to , nit for on adhkan
                      This one give a litteral meaning of prostrating to the ground, a physical one
                      Chins is a pluriel , Dhakn it's pluriel is not Adhkan, it's Dhoukoun
                      Read the ancient arabic poetry, the time of islam and before islam, you see trees fall to adhkan, or a house fall to adhlkan, or a warrior fall to adhkan
                      Put in your mind something, most people who read the quran alone have influence on sects

                      Allah know best

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • L Offline
                        L Offline
                        loxbox13
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #31

                        A correction for my previous post

                        Salaam dear Loxbox13,

                        In my Arabic dictionaries, the root Zaqana means "to strike on the chin", "lean the chin upon" (with 'alaa); Azqan means "chin", sometimes "beard". Some translations render the meaning as "faces" in 17107, I kept the literal meaning as "they prostrate on their chins".
                        I suggest you check
                        368
                        For we place around their necks shackles, up to their chins. Consequently, they become locked in their disbelief.

                        17107
                        Proclaim ?Believe in it (the Quran) or not, verily, when it is recited to those who were blessed with knowledge before this, (1st prostration they fall on their chins prostrating.

                        I ckecked about 25 translations online, not one goes your way and they unanimously translate "chins", "faces".
                        I have no idea where you got that meaning, and I understand a little bit more why your translation regarding "raka'a" was so off.

                        I advice you with all my heart not to listen to some arrogant people on this forum who will be totally unable to prostrate before God on the Day of Judgment, because they arrogantly refused to do so during this lifetime, and because they twisted the original and straightforward meaning of words to fit their horrible agenda Destroy real Islam and follow their own egos.
                        They do not even pray towards Mecca. They claim Mecca is not the Sacred Masjid when it is cast in stone in 4824-25 (again they distort the real meaning), they lost the five prayers perfectly detailed in the Quran (http//www.islamrevolution.org/salaatsummary.htm, Salaat times 17.2.1 to 17.2.5), they claim there is no lunar calendar in the Quran, and so on. They have completely lost touch with the Quran and Islam. They may be be Free Minds, in reality they are Lost Minds, and certainly not Muslims.
                        They even allow trashy subjects like defending homosexuality on this forum, when any decent Muslim knows about the lesson of Sodome and Gomorah, and knows full well that homosexuality is an abomination. A guy like Ayman fools people because he uses a scholarly tone in his articles and some uneducated people are impressed, but there is nothing of value in his message, except a complete revisionism of Islam to feed his ego.

                        This is the last place on earth where you want to learn about Islam; the only reason I am here it is try to help people regarding salaat, then I will take off.

                        Peace.

                        Pierre

                        368
                        For we place around their necks shackles, up to their chins. Consequently, they become locked in their disbelief.

                        Of you read this translation it doesn't make sense, because chained their necks and to the chins doesn't make u not abke to move, but chained to the ground ,this doesn't not allow u to move, , just think about it, unless allah is talking non sense
                        if the shackes are in theur necks means to their chins because the chained necks are chains to the chins , iy'a a repetition in this case the same thing, ,but the chains in their necks to adhkan, to the ground makes them not able to move , in your translation they added " locked in their disbelief " they assed this because it doesn't make sense so they addes a metaphore to it, because the verse doesn't say in their disbelief, it just says they can't move perod
                        event though, they added in their disbelief to give a metaphoric meaning, they gave it wrong, because chained in the hearafter in front of angels and all cannot be in a disbelief, everyone will believe in the hearafter

                        17107
                        Proclaim ?Believe in it (the Quran) or not, verily, when it is recited to those who were blessed with knowledge before this, (1st prostration they fall on their chins prostrating.
                        Notice, it says lil"adhkan and not aala adhkane the letter in the begining give it a sense of direction, meaning to the ground
                        This one to , it said yakhorou ila adhlan, meaning fall to the ground
                        This one give a litteral meaning of prostrating to the ground, a physical one
                        Chins is a pluriel , Dhakn it's pluriel is not Adhkan, it's Dhoukoun
                        Read the ancient arabic poetry, the time of islam and before islam, you see trees fall to adhkan, or a house fall to adhlkan, or a warrior fall to adhkan
                        Put in your mind something, most people who read the quran alone have influence on sects

                        Allah know best

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                          6619
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #32

                          Exactly Pierre, just see the verse 2543,44 among so many in The Qur'aan for description of these ingrates.

                          I do recommend that you stay and continue your JIHAAD. At least you may be able to reach the innocent newcomers and "bystanders" and preventing them from getting lost. That is the whole purpose of propagating the true Islam according to The Qur'aan. That is the mission according to the principles of PROHIBITING VICE & ADVOCATING VIRTUE.

                          Peace,
                          Khalil

                          Salaam dear Khalil,

                          Well done citing verse 2543-44. It is who they are, on the Day of Judgment they will be obliged to reveal what they are. Whoever arrogantly refused to prostrate physically and mentally before God will be irremediably exposed and it will be impossible for them to prostrate, their arrogance will be exposed. Right now they are playing and they feel so flattered that some innocent (and sometimes not so innocent...) people who lack experience and knowledge fall in their spider web.
                          They will bear both their sins and the ones of those they misguided on the Day of reckoning.
                          I would like to tell you that I am totally involved in the JIHAAD, God willing until my last breath. I cannot spend too much time here right now, because I have plans to fight arrogant people like Freeminds and others in an a more effective and lasting way. I will be back periodically, God willing, with more proofs until they will be so blatantly exposed that sincere people will shun them, and realize how horrible they are, God willing.
                          I thank God from the bottom of my heart I know that a number of people have already greatly benefited from the very important information in the article on Salaat (http//www.islamrevolution.org/salaatsummary.htm) Once they understand the purpose of the FIVE daily salaat time frames and how precisely described they are, it makes them literally bullet proof against the liars.

                          To Loxbox13 regarding 368, here is a more litteral translation than the first one I posted

                          Behold, around their necks We have put shackles, an allegory of their deliberate denial of the truth." See notes on 135 and 3433.] reaching up to their chins, so that their heads are forced up; (Translation and commentary Muhammad Asad)

                          And another one
                          Since they have chosen to neglect Our revelations, We have thus put yokes round their necks right up to their chins so their heads are raised up. (Malik)

                          Those who refuse to prostrate in Salaat will be speechless on the Day of Judgment.
                          To finish, another verse to expose people who claim there are only two ritual prayers in Islam
                          You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers (salawat = regular Arabic plural = 3 or more entities), as well as the middle prayer (al Salaat al wusta), and devote yourselves totally to GOD.

                          Two prayers per day !? you gotta be kidding me ! brickwall

                          Peace and god bless !

                          Pierre

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                            ayman
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #33

                            Peace Pierre,

                            If the chins of the people the book listening to the recitation of the Quran did not touch the ground while they prostrated, then I am completely astray and arrogantly deny the truth, and Ayman and Wakas are guided.
                            If their chins actually physically touched the ground during their prostration, then Ayman and Wakas are astray and arrogantly deny the truth, and I am guided regarding the fact that prostration is a physical prostration.

                            Same case for 4829. Only people filled with arrogance refuse to prostrate physically and well as mentally before God in their ritual prayers. As for the mark due to prostration, as I said in my article, it is not the type of self inflicted mark that al Qaida type of people inflict on themselves. It simply acknowledges that the foreheads of those who submit to God actually touch the ground. People who observe Salaat 5 times a day have an almost indistinguishable mark on their foreheads due to the prostrations. Many years ago when I was discovered Islam as a sunni, to my surprise, I remember friends of mine had already noticed that on my forehead, and same with you Asana or anyone else if you observe Salaat five times a day, look at yourself very closely in the mirror under proper light, and you will see an almost indistinguishable, very slight mark. No one wil notice that mark unless they know you are Muslim and look very closely.

                            You are hypocritically contradicting yourself. Do you prostrate to the chin as the god said (if you understand sujud physically) or do you disobey him and prostrate to the forehead because you think you know better? It is a physical impossibility for your chin and forehead to be on the ground at the same time.

                            Also, you lied and claimed that you braught some some new observations but you haven't told everyone what new better understanding you have achieved beyond what every misguided sectarian already blindly follows from his or her forefathers.

                            Finally, do you have any better argument against any of my articles other than that they sound scholarly while yours sound amateurish?

                            Peace,

                            Ayman

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                              Mazhar
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #34

                              Do you prostrate to the chin as the god said (if you understand sujud physically) or do you disobey him and prostrate to the forehead because you think you know better? It is a physical impossibility for your chin and forehead to be on the ground at the same time.

                              What a great scholarly observation!

                              Place a video camera in action and prostrate. Later see the video in slow motion to observe movement of every part of body, particularly face. And then again see whether the words depict the same image or otherwise.

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                                ayman
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #35

                                What a great scholarly observation!
                                Place a video camera in action and prostrate. Later see the video in slow motion to observe movement of every part of body, particularly face. And then again see whether the words depict the same image or otherwise.

                                No one needs a video to tell him that sectarians who understand falling to the chin in prostration as physical actually do it to the forehead and not the chin. Maybe you can post a video of you to show otherwise if you have an abnormally long chin.

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                                  6619
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #36

                                  What a great scholarly observation!

                                  Place a video camera in action and prostrate. Later see the video in slow motion to observe movement of every part of body, particularly face. And then again see whether the words depict the same image or otherwise.

                                  Salaam Ayman and all,

                                  1. We see that the people of the book in 17107-17108 prostrate on their chins
                                    (17107) Proclaim ?Believe in it (Quran) or not, verily, when it is recited to those who were blessed with knowledge before this, (1st prostration) they fall on their chins prostrating. (1710 And they proclaim ?Praise be to our Lord ! Indeed the prophecy of our Lord has assuredly been fulfilled !? (17109) (2nd prostration) And they fall on their chins in tears, as it increases their reverence.

                                  First of all this shows that you are a liar when you claim that a prostration is a not physical prostration.
                                  Now as usual you cite verses out of the general context of the Quran to try to mislead people, as it is clear that rituals between the people of the book and Muslims are sometimes slightly different. For instance, Muslims do not have any rites regarding Easter, eventhough it was revealed to Moses. We have another example of a slighly different ritual with 17107 showing us that Jewish people used to prostrate on their chins during Salaat.

                                  1. The way Muslims prostrate is described in the following verse
                                    (4829) Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those with him are fierce against the disbelievers and compassionate among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating (yes we are talking about Salaat) seeking God?s favors and acceptance. Their faces bear the marks left by the prostrations ( , most notably in Salaat). Such is their parable in the Torah as well as their parable in the Gospel they are like a seed which puts forth its sprout, then strengthens itself, becomes thick and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers, while enraging the disbelievers. God has promised forgiveness as well as an immense reward to those among them who believe and do deeds of righteousness.

                                  Here's bad news for Ayman "the marks left by the prostrations" ("prostrations" is a regular Arabic plural which means by definition three prostrations or more) mean that it is the many physical prostrations that leave a physical mark on the faces of people who observe Salaat (when they are not arrogant and accept to pray as described in the Quran). The only place where the physical prostrations leave a mark on the face is the forehead; Any Muslim who prays five times has a very slight mark on the forehead that people can usually hardly see, but it is there.
                                  This shows once more how Ayman does all he can to lead people astray, consistently citing verses out of context, and keeping silent, or manipulating the true sense of words to extract a different meaning every time something does not go his way.
                                  Yes Ayman is one of those arrogant people who refuses to prostrate mentally and physically as he too proud, and disobeys the command of his lord like satan when he refused to prostrate before Adam.

                                  Here is what is promised to such people
                                  6842 The day will come when they will be exposed, and they will be required to fall prostrate, but they will be unable to. 6843 With their eyes subdued, humiliation will cover them. They were invited to fall prostrate when they were whole and able.

                                  Anyone who wants to end up on the Day of Judgment like the arrogant people who refuse to follow God's command to prostrate physically during Salaat, go ahead, and do not EVER dare to claim you were not warned.

                                  Ayman and like minded people are playing right now feeding their egos, on the Day of Judgment it will be game over.

                                  Pierre

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                                    Mazhar
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #37

                                    Here is what is promised to such people
                                    6842 The day will come when they will be exposed, and they will be required to fall prostrate, but they will be unable to. 6843 With their eyes subdued, humiliation will cover them. They were invited to fall prostrate when they were whole and able.

                                    http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/068.%20Al%20Qalam/68.42.gif
                                    The Day the shin is distanced from the shin
                                    http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/068.%20Al%20Qalam/68.42a.gif
                                    and they will be called towards the prostration, thereat/for reason they will not be able to make it possible for their selves to prostrate,
                                    http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/068.%20Al%20Qalam/68.43a.gif
                                    And indeed they used to be called towards prostrations while they were in sound free state.

                                    6834-52

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                                      Wakas
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #38

                                      Any Muslim who prays five times has a very slight mark on the forehead that people can usually hardly see, but it is there.

                                      Hardly see? ;D

                                      All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

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                                        6619
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #39

                                        Hardly see? ;D

                                        It is a fact.

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                                          ayman
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #40

                                          Peace Pierre,

                                          1. We see that the people of the book in 17107-17108 prostrate on their chins
                                            (17107) Proclaim ?Believe in it (Quran) or not, verily, when it is recited to those who were blessed with knowledge before this, (1st prostration) they fall on their chins prostrating. (1710 And they proclaim ?Praise be to our Lord ! Indeed the prophecy of our Lord has assuredly been fulfilled !? (17109) (2nd prostration) And they fall on their chins in tears, as it increases their reverence.
                                            First of all this shows that you are a liar when you claim that a prostration is a not physical prostration.
                                            Now as usual you cite verses out of the general context of the Quran to try to mislead people, as it is clear that rituals between the people of the book and Muslims are sometimes slightly different. For instance, Muslims do not have any rites regarding Easter, eventhough it was revealed to Moses. We have another example of a slighly different ritual with 17107 showing us that Jewish people used to prostrate on their chins during Salaat.

                                          The passage says those who were already given the knowledge. So falling to the chin in prostration is what the knowledgeable do. We should all hope that we are amongst those given the knowledge and as soon as we hear the great reading we obey the god. Of course you are not from the knowledgeable. You think that you know better than the god. This demonstrates that you cannot prostrate even physically per your own understanding. Are you too proud to prostrate to the chin like those who were given the knowledge (if you understand it physically)?

                                          1. The way Muslims prostrate is described in the following verse
                                            (4829) Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those with him are fierce against the disbelievers and compassionate among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating (yes we are talking about Salaat) seeking God?s favors and acceptance. Their faces bear the marks left by the prostrations ( , most notably in Salaat). Such is their parable in the Torah as well as their parable in the Gospel they are like a seed which puts forth its sprout, then strengthens itself, becomes thick and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers, while enraging the disbelievers. God has promised forgiveness as well as an immense reward to those among them who believe and do deeds of righteousness.

                                          You have a lying forehead. If you are not a liar, can you please underline the word "forehead" in the passage?

                                          The ONLY time the "forehead" is mentioned with "sujud" is in this passage that talks about those who divert from the REAL "salat"

                                          96015-019.
                                          SHAKIR
                                          Nay! if he desist not, We would certainly smite his forehead,
                                          A lying, sinful forehead.
                                          Then let him summon his council,
                                          We too would summon the braves of the army.
                                          Nay! obey him not, and make obeisance and draw nigh (to Allah).

                                          Notice that Shakir translates prostration as "obeisance" and not as physical prostration since it is added to the "draw near", which is 100% sure not physical. It is also in contrast to obeying people like you with the lying errant forehead.

                                          Here's bad news for Ayman "the marks left by the prostrations" ("prostrations" is a regular Arabic plural which means by definition three prostrations or more) mean that it is the many physical prostrations that leave a physical mark on the faces of people who observe Salaat (when they are not arrogant and accept to pray as described in the Quran).

                                          I have good news for Pierre, which is that the plural of the singular form "sajdah" is "sajadat" not "sujud". )

                                          The only place where the physical prostrations leave a mark on the face is the forehead; Any Muslim who prays five times has a very slight mark on the forehead that people can usually hardly see, but it is there.

                                          http//newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44775000/jpg/_44775753_zebiba226.jpg

                                          The mark that you are talking about is actually a type of skin dermatitis due to friction against a rough surface. This is why it also appears on other areas of the body such as the elbows and the knees and the feet. This often develops into a fungal infection and this is why you can often see little white spots on the so-called ?prayer bump?.

                                          From
                                          http//www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definitions/Prayer+bump?cx=partner-pub-0939450753529744%3Av0qd01-tdlq&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=Prayer+bump&sa=Search#922

                                          Prayer bumps are almost never present in women, rarely in establishment clerics, and are far more common in Egypt than in other countries; for these reasons they are generally seen as an intentional shibboleth of religious identity more than a passive product of regular prayer.

                                          According to Pierre?s twisted logic Bin Laden and all the stupid terrorists are pious since they have the ?prayer bump?.

                                          This shows once more how Ayman does all he can to lead people astray, consistently citing verses out of context, and keeping silent, or manipulating the true sense of words to extract a different meaning every time something does not go his way.
                                          Yes Ayman is one of those arrogant people who refuses to prostrate mentally and physically as he too proud, and disobeys the command of his lord like satan when he refused to prostrate before Adam.

                                          Here is what Classical Arabic dictionaries say about "sjd"

                                          Translation "sjd" = submit/obey (non physical)

                                          I have no problem with prostrating physically if this is how you understand it. However, if one understands ?sujud? physically then by the same token it must be to the chin.

                                          On the other hand, the hypocrites simply show off by prostrating to their lying and errant forehead. Those are the hypocrites who divert from the real ?salat? and instead work backwards to justify their preconceptions about ?salat? from their forefathers. This is why you keep evading and are unable to say what NEW better observations you bring beyond what sectarian hypocrites already blindly follow from their forefathers.

                                          Peace,

                                          Ayman

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